Ryun - Brief Vid of Dusseldorf '67 : 11.6 / 36.5 ( incomplete ) finish now on Youtube

Either that or the footage isn't being shown at the right speed, in which case it doesn't really stand up as evidence at all.

Peer Mediator wrote:

Elliott Rodgers wrote:

Aouita never ran a 3:34 with a last 300 in 36.1.

It's quoted on P. 59 of "International Running Guide 1985" edited by Mel Watman.

"Aouita produced the fastest ever finish to a high quality 1500m race when he was timed at 36.14 for the final 300m in a 3:34.82 victory at Grosseto.

Also mentioned on P.68 of Athletics Weekly (edition 28.7.1984) and again in the Sept 1st edition on P.59 in the list of results.

"1500: Aouita (Mor) 3:34.82 (36.14 last 300)"

So it's listed and corroborated in more than 1 place.

Unless you were there and timed it yourself, I don't think you're in a position to claim he didn't as a fact.

Thank you for providing what exists; this is why I like to press these things.

If we accept what you've set forth, everything traces back to the simple "1500: Aouita (Mor) 3:34.82 (36.14 last 300)" in AW with no source given for the information.

Once a data point appears in one place, it can be repeated in subsequent publications (such as the 1985 Guide), but repetition is not corroboration.

We simply have a bare number with no idea of who was responsible for providing the number to AW.

We have no account of the race that gives a plausible explanation of how two other runners (one with a very undistinguished 3:37 PB) could finish within 2.82 seconds of such a wildly fast close in a 3:34 race.

We have no other races on video record where Aouita closed anywhere near as fast.

On the whole, thin stuff and not remotely comparable to what we have for Dusseldorf '67.

Peer Mediator wrote:

Either that or the footage isn't being shown at the right speed, in which case it doesn't really stand up as evidence at all.

obsessed

Not at all. Just fed up with Ventolin and his 100 other handles going on and on about it every week.

If you look at the original version of the meet which the edited one came from, you will see the last 150m of the 800 at the same meet won by Franz Josef Kemper in 1:46.2. He covers the last stretch from the mark at the beginning of the stretch (I believe it to be the 90m line) a lot faster than Ryun.

I timed him in 11.1/11.2, which is about 12.4/12.5 pace for 100m.

Ryun covers the corresponding stretch from that mark in 11.6/11.7.

It would be interesting to know what Kemper's last 200 and 300 were given as that night, because he was certainly 0.5 faster than Ryun over the final 100m!

Because I'm here at the moment I try to answer directly.

There IS an running clock on the video and it shows the time to the tenth (also not very clear visible). The 300m line is the line 2 or 3 steps before these steeple barrier and the hammer circle.

I now have tried to time the 100m segment from 1100m to 1200m at both versions of the race. In the one with the running clock it always came out short to 14s (13,8/13,9); in the other one it came out around 13s (13,0/13,1). The first one coincides with the running clock, so it seems that the velocity of the 2nd one is little too high.

Peer Mediator wrote:

Not at all. Just fed up with Ventolin and his 100 other handles going on and on about it every week.

If you look at the original version of the meet which the edited one came from, you will see the last 150m of the 800 at the same meet won by Franz Josef Kemper in 1:46.2. He covers the last stretch from the mark at the beginning of the stretch (I believe it to be the 90m line) a lot faster than Ryun.

I timed him in 11.1/11.2, which is about 12.4/12.5 pace for 100m.

Ryun covers the corresponding stretch from that mark in 11.6/11.7.

It would be interesting to know what Kemper's last 200 and 300 were given as that night, because he was certainly 0.5 faster than Ryun over the final 100m!

I think you have a point with the timing of the first 100m segment from the bell, which I've just tried and also get 13.1, but I don't think you're correct with the last section. Yes, it must be the 90m line, but I have both Ryun in his 1500 and Kemper in the 800 (http://www.filmothek.bundesarchiv.de/video/586813)

at around 11.1/11.2. Ryun definitely wasn't as slow as 11.6. There is a pole a few metres after the finish line which looks like it could have been the finish. I think that is where you were stopping the clock for Ryun.

An 11.2 last 90 is worth about 12.4 for last 100, which fits in with the "reported" 24.8 last 200.

Said, I think PeerMediator has a point. Could you check the original copy of your video to ensure that line just before the steeplechase hurdle is the line they started the race from?

Both the German version and the edited version on Youtube definitely have that 100m section in about 13.1. If the running clock on your version splits 13.9, then one of them isn't at the right speed. Try hand timing your version on the same curve stretch and see if you also get 13.9 or something faster.

Alternatively, could those 2 lines be the relay 20m zone? He does take about 2.4 between them which is 12.0 pace.

Rather than go by the running clock on your copy, try hand timing his last lap and see if you still get 50.5.

Cheers.

Deanouk wrote:

]

Said, I think PeerMediator has a point. Could you check the original copy of your video to ensure that line just before the steeplechase hurdle is the line they started the race from?

Both the German version and the edited version on Youtube definitely have that 100m section in about 13.1. If the running clock on your version splits 13.9, then one of them isn't at the right speed. Try hand timing your version on the same curve stretch and see if you also get 13.9 or something faster.

What do you think I have done first? For sure I have checked where the race has started. And as I have just now said a few minutes ago I have stopped on both versions the 1100m to 1200m section.

said88 wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

]

Said, I think PeerMediator has a point. Could you check the original copy of your video to ensure that line just before the steeplechase hurdle is the line they started the race from?

Both the German version and the edited version on Youtube definitely have that 100m section in about 13.1. If the running clock on your version splits 13.9, then one of them isn't at the right speed. Try hand timing your version on the same curve stretch and see if you also get 13.9 or something faster.

What do you think I have done first? For sure I have checked where the race has started. And as I have just now said a few minutes ago I have stopped on both versions the 1100m to 1200m section.

Sorry Said, I just re-read your earlier response and mis-read the bit about hand timing your version "coincides" with the on screen clock. Apologies.

Peer Mediator wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

he's analysed it & says 11.6/36.5

...

The numbers don't add up and I think some timers were taking splits from the wrong lines which were relay zone lines.

One good reason why stand-alone splits such as the 36.14 for Aouita should be viewed with skepticism.

I look forward to the publication of a full Dusseldorf video.

Yes perhaps Ryun was a bit faster than 11.6, but don't think his last 90 was any faster than Kemper's last 90m.

Interesting that Said's video of the race is at a different speed to the one on YouTube.

If he can look at the time on the clock and work out Ryun's last 90m , then we can figure out his last 100m

Peer Mediator wrote:

Yes perhaps Ryun was a bit faster than 11.6, but don't think his last 90 was any faster than Kemper's last 90m.

Interesting that Said's video of the race is at a different speed to the one on YouTube.

If he can look at the time on the clock and work out Ryun's last 90m , then we can figure out his last 100m

The difference appears to be Ryun looks like he's letting up after seeing he has such a huge lead, while Kemper is straining, almost ready to let one go in his shorts, struggling to the finish. And actually, Ryun does look faster in the homestretch, even while letting up. But what does it matter? Deano will tell us all that Coe would flatten Ryun, Rudisha and runners not yet born in any race.

utter drivel

the vid shows it was 38.05

why keep posting this 37.9 nonsense ???

& bile ran wide the last bend, with foot sometime in lane 2, costing him at least 0.3s

coe's "impediment" occured when bile had already past him in stretch & coe tried to get thru too small a gap

coe's best wouda been a 37.9 finish in a 3'35

that compares nowhere to a 36.5 on a 3'38 on dirt

not only that bile ran faster last 300, that german ran at least as fast a last 300 as coe, further devaluing coe's effort

no

but it was nothing more than a 400/800 race & bile had 1'43.6 speed that year, slower sb than coe, but obviously he was likely worth quicker than 1'43.6

more nonsense

comparing a 800 on synthetic to a 1500 on dirt is nonsense

kip ran 52.0/50.7 with his real kick only coming in last 200 when his lead grew from 2m to 15m from 600m to finish

he almost certainly went a 24+ in that last 200

assuming same 52.0 pace to 600 -> 1'18.0

that gives prelim estimate of last 200 as

~ 24.77

24.77 finish in a 1'42.77 is REAL kicking on a synthetic

now lets see this drivel

from reports he went 2'03.6 for 800, much faster than coe's 2'05.1, then ~ 60.0 then 50.5 with 11.6 in a 36.5 !!!

2'03.6 on dirt v 2'05.1 on synthetic

Ryun had to run harder 1st 800 of race - significantly

fool

you posting drivel that coe had run far easier 800 not get into your brain ???

more nonsense

Ryun's race got faster from 800 to 1100m but he blasted it there with 11.6 & 24.9

that 11.6 already finished the field

utter total drivel

what part of your brain can't comprehend coe beat straub by just 0.4s

straub who had 3'33 career pb !

Ryun crushed his competitors by 4s !!!

utter drivel

in slow races, it is won in last lap or last 300

in terms of last 300, Ryun utterly crushed coe's figures

how on earth did nobody like straub run coe so close ???

can't your brain comprehend that beating a nobody like straub by just 0.4s severely devalues coe's effort

yes

but you don't think, yet again

if rudy's london run had been a 1-off rested race, something about 1'40-mid is all anyone wouda expected

that's 0.4s over 800

for coe, that ratio means his last 300 wouda been looking at being (300/800) * 0.4 = 0.15s

that means his last 300 wouda been no better than 38.5+

nonsense

you have no idea how much faster his last 300 wouda been on basis of fastest last 100 of 12.2 NOT 12.1

it certainly woudn't have been 0.9s

evenning out 26.5/12.2 = 38.58s

that wouda been an under-estimate because of unused energy in the 200m section

a time likely in region of 38-low is indicated if he'd gone flat-out from 300m point not nonsense like 37.8

more nonsense

he ran his last 700 at 1'46.6 pace beating nobody straub by 0.4s

therefore straub ran last 800 at 1'47.1 pace

your eternal problem is that straub, a nobody, ran coe so close - 0.4s

Ryun crushed his field by 4s !!!

said88 wrote:Because I'm here at the moment I try to answer directly.

There IS an running clock on the video and it shows the time to the tenth (also not very clear visible). The 300m line is the line 2 or 3 steps before these steeple barrier and the hammer circle.

I now have tried to time the 100m segment from 1100m to 1200m at both versions of the race. In the one with the running clock it always came out short to 14s (13,8/13,9); in the other one it came out around 13s (13,0/13,1). The first one coincides with the running clock, so it seems that the velocity of the 2nd one is little too high.

Kindly therefore give us your final estimates for

- last 400

- 1200 to 1300 split

- last 300

said88 wrote:The 36,14 is not a "message board evolution". This time was reported in the German magazine SPIRIDON.

regardless of whether it was exactly a 36.1 in a 3'34.8, it does mean aouita was damn, damn fast in '84

it wouda made him the huge favourite if he'd run the olympic 1500, where coe ran 39.1 for 3'32.5

coe also went 39.03 in a 3'32.3 in zurich

neither of these remotely is in ballpark of a 36+ in a 3'34.8

on top of that aouita had fastest 1500 of year : 3'31.54, then 3rd fastest 1500 of all time

Your anti Coe stance in almost every response to certain posters is so obvious and highly amusing. It makes you look biased and desperate and does nothing to make Ryun look better.

You seem to be ignorant to the fact that not all races come down to who has the fastest 300m. There are different tactics. It's clear that in 1980 Straub went from 700 out and gradually increased the pace. Why would Coe, with the best finishing speed make a burst 300 out? He carried out the best tactic by running all out in last 100. To run a 12.1 in an Olympic final not a one off match against Germany with a dawdling 3rd lap, is pretty amazing. Norpoth and Boldo were not in the same league as Ovett or the doped up East German.

A better comparison of the 2 would be their Olympic performances. Did Ryun run a 12.1 last 100 in any of the 3 Olympics he competed in?

Did he win 2 gold medals at the end of many races?

Did Ryun even attempt to run both the half mile and 1500 in the Olympics? If not, why not?

Coe was an old man of 33 when he faced Bile. He would have run at least 37.8 for the last 300 if Bile hadn't impeded him. Clear to all commentators and analysts at the time that Bile encroached into Coe before he was past him. Coe had the inside lane and it was Bile who was at fault. At that speed this would not only have chopped his stride but also broken his rhythm and form. Coe did well after that to hold on to second.

Your nonsense about 800 times just highlights your persistent contradictions.

When Coe ran no faster than a 1:44 for 800 in 81 after his world record, you said that was evidence he couldn't run faster than 1:41.7. BUT, when Bile runs a pb of 1:43.6, you suggest he could have run faster even though he didn't. Quite moronic conclusions.

Fact was Coe ran a 1:43.3 in 89 and was faster than Bile's 1:43.6. They were closely matched, and it was close in the 1500. Had it been 81 or 84 or even 86, Coe would have won, barring any more fouls.

Bile ran that last curve in 12.1, worth more like 11.8/11.9 on the rails, which is equally impressive in a 3:35 major race than a 11.8 straight in a 3:38.

I have Kipketer's Monaco race and his last 200 on the rails was indeed 24.7. What this has to do with Ryun or Coe I don't know. And yes that is an impressive last 200m kick in a fast 800. It isn't comparable to a last 100m kick of 11.3 in a tactical 1:47 race. They are just 2 completely different scenarios.

Coe did run a 24.8 last 200 in winning the Europeans in 86, in which he ran about 809m, and about 2m wide on the last bend alone. That works out as the equivalent to a last 200 of 24.5 in a 1:43.3 race. That is comparable to Kipketer's 24.7 in a 1:42.7, especially when the former was after rounds.

There is not a significant difference between 2:03 and 2:05 at that level for going through 800m. It was at that point that the races differed completely. Ryun ran a 58.5 third lap, Coe ran 54.6. Now that is a significant difference in a 400 section.

Btw, where have you got this 11.6/24.9 all of a sudden? Said88 never said the back stretch was 11.6, he only said the last 300 was 36.5 or 36.6. He settled on 36.54? which I suggest is more like 36.6 if it was timed using FAT.

Other reports have said 24.8 for the last 200 although Said88 said that can't be confirmed on his video of the race. So how come you are the only one who is breaking it down as 11.6/24.9?

Rudisha had 2 heats in his legs when running the 800 final, Coe had 5. And when has fatigue only been felt in the last 300m. lol. Having run 5 races in such close proximity would have had some effect on both Coe and Ovett in the final of the 1500, and it wouldn't have only been in the last 300m. You can't even out a last 300m. That's absurd. If the last 3 x 100m went 13.7, 12.9, 12.1, you can guarantee that there was a lot more left to run slightly faster over the last 300m if required. Certainly 38 flat, though the last 100m wouldn't have been as fast.

But there was no need to do so. Straub didn't 'explode' at 300, requiring Coe to do the same. He was gathering himself before a gradual increase in speed. But clearly you are not familiar with different tactics in winning a 1500!

Coe knew he had the faster raw speed at the end of the race and chose (rightly in the circumstances) to adopt a last 100m kick to win the Olympic title. Something Ryun failed to do on 3 attempts.

Straub was not a nobody. You clearly dismiss him when you wrote,

"straub who had 3'33 career pb !"

Well, he had the same 3:33 pb as Ryun. Straub would also have been within 1.7sec of the then WR. And that 3:33.68 was a solo run with splits of 52.6, 1:52.0 and 2:51.0.... worth at least a 3:32 low evened out and with drafting/company to the bell.

Straub also training partner of Beyer and Dieter Hogen, under same coach of Berndt Diessner. Beyer was listed on official Stasi documents as being on a state doping programme, and only ran far above himself once, in a Championship behind the iron curtain. One can make their own conclusions re Straub from that.

Straub didn't run Coe that close, as it was basically a sprint over the last 100m. If it had been a fast paced circuit race then Straub, even with 3:32 ability, wouldn't have been that close to Coe or Ovett.

Straub had a 0.3 lead over Coe going into the last 300m, yet Coe was 0.4 ahead at the finish, meaning Coe ran the last 300m 0.7 faster than Straub, and he ran further to get past Straub on the last bend. Coe probably ran an extra 1.5 to 2m than Straub, meaning he was about 1.0 sec faster than Straub over the last 300m.

Straub's closing splits were 52.8, 39.4, 25.7, 12.6. Compared to Coe's 52.2, 38.7, 25.0, 12.1

There is a big difference.

Straub had never before run anywhere near this sort of level and would never do so again. Ovett actually ran faster in the last 100m of the 1500 final (12.6) than he did in winning the 800m (12.7), yet still couldn't get past Straub.

Now lets look at the difference between Ryun and Tummler/Norpoth, who you rate so highly.

Well, Tummler had a pb of 3:39.1 when he faced Ryun, and Norpoth's pb was 3:39.7. Both were from 66 and neither even broke 3:40 in 67, the year they faced Ryun.

Ryun was more than 6 secs faster than either of the German's at their career bests, which is a darn size more than the 1.7 that separated Coe & Straub in 1980.

If Straub was a 'nobody' in your books, then what does that make Norpoth and Tummler? You would expect Ryun to destroy them in any sort of race.