Why are so many posters appalled at Rupp's post-race WO?

I don't think anyone has posted this yet, so here's an interesting column by Amby Burfoot, who is actually someone who knows something about the sport:

http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/opinion-galen-rupps-training-is-ridiculously-rational

LOL II wrote:

webfoot, how about proportional effort?

Rupp's 8:07 or my 9:50. Why is it "easier" for a runner like Galen to do a hard workout after a hard-effort race? Why wasn't HRE able to run his 15:34 and then do a handful or 4:45 miles?

I am not challenging you, just looking for ideas and clarification.

And you HRE, why do you think this is?

I have never tried to do a workout after racing and would like to know if that is feasible/advisable, for slower runners (16:20 5k here).

Just guessing on webfoots response, but certainly Rupp is more trained for it and also has more natural ability to do it. For the same reason that he naturally can go out and run sub 5:00 as a 7th grader and others never can. He was built to run better/handle more running related stress & recover faster. Take that and train at it for over 10 years and it's much easier than for someone with less natural ability to run and recover, and who hasn't been training to do it for a long time.

LOL II wrote:

webfoot, how about proportional effort?

Rupp's 8:07 or my 9:50. Why is it "easier" for a runner like Galen to do a hard workout after a hard-effort race? Why wasn't HRE able to run his 15:34 and then do a handful or 4:45 miles?

It isn't proportional. It takes a LOT more time for HRE to do the same workout as Rupp. There is a difference in efficiency: HRE sounds like a flying bumblebee compared to Rupp the raptor (HRE's mile is a minute slower than Rupp's). The biggest difference may be Rupp's ability to recover after a hard effort.

some light wrote:

So run fatigued, i.e.- post race

Get the benefits of running fatigued after an awesome effort, and also make an already tough peak day, a full workout day. No way any other tough day that he peaked for was Galen going to do only 2 miles of hard running. Put it all in one day and move on.

Well then, "put it all in one day", huh? Then why not throw in, oh, I don't know, another 8 x400 at say 56 pace ( a jog for Galen). You know, as Fitzgerald put it, practice running fatigued! (if you really mean it).

some light wrote:BTW, 4 x mile at 10K pace not that hard. The 4:01 at the end is the thing messing everyone up here. They just can't comprehend his fitness level. Maybe they will understand after he runs 3:48-3:49 in a few weeks.

Or maybe you and others will when he doesn't break 3:50...? Not saying he won't break it, but let's wait and see.

Ritz, Sol, Teg, BK, and Lagat have all run faster than Rupp at 5k so far. Did they ALL run extremely hard workouts after running many of their PR races leading up to those fast 5k's?.... as Galen is doing? If not, then there is not proof that Salazar's method is a superior one to taking it easy after the race, and coming back after one day rest and blasting an even better workout. None, zilch, nada.

Just because Rupp is extremely talented and successful, and Salazar is a knowledgeable, passionate, good coach, it doesn't mean that EVERY part of his training scheme is better than a different training concept he could follow. Sorry, it doesn't. On this particular method (very hard workouts after races), the jury is out. Unless one did controlled experiments with many very talented guys doing the same training except for doing/not doing the extremely hard post race workout, we don't know.

But Ritz, Sol, Teg and BK have no medals at the seniot level.

SMJO wrote:

But Ritz, Sol, Teg and BK have no medals at the seniot level.

fine, but there many, many factors that go into a runner's ultimate success/and or getting a medal:

a) overall talent

b) injury resistance

c) strength of competition during championship race

d) having a peak year during an OG/WC year

e) use of synthetic altitude or other controversial passive "training" methods

f) etc, etc, etc

Rupp may have some advantages in these areas that led to his medal and to the others' lack of medals.

And don't forget, Teg came extremely close to a WC medal, Ritz did win a WC's 1/2 marathon medal (and remember, road depth has been as good as track depth due to $ in recent years), BK was facing probably the deepest track fields ever, and Sol very well might have medaled if he had been at his peak during a championship year (2010 was his peak year, unfortunately a non-champioship year).

I am not diminishing Rupp's accomplishments and the fact that yes, absolutely, his career is overall better than the guys I mentioned (due to medal, overall range, and AR's), other than Lagat. But the fact remains, that advantage that he holds does not necessarily have anything to do with post-PR/AR-workouts. It might, it might not. I was simply pointing out that several americans have had similar results (better in the 5k) with different approaches. Its silly to say that: he's the best american runner, therefore every SINGLE aspect of his training is absolutely the best approach, and no others could be as good/better, with lower risks.

Adam was a head case , ran his course of competition and was done.

Over training , Don't think so , specific conditioning to higher thresholds of stressed physiology and tolerance to heavy workloads yes. A easy 3 mile cool down post race does what exactly for fitness ?

This formula Alberto is developing has made his athletes world class competitive at every level , won't work for all but for those its does , something to be said in the thought process of how current elite coaching is outdated.

[quote]Tyrannnosaurus Rexing wrote:

Ritz, Sol, Teg, BK, and Lagat have all run faster than Rupp at 5k so far. Did they ALL run extremely hard workouts after running many of their PR races leading up to those fast 5k's?.... as Galen is doing? If not, then there is not proof that Salazar's method is a superior one to taking it easy after the race, and coming back after one day rest and blasting an even better workout. None, zilch, nada.

quote]

3:50, 7:30, 26:48 and a, 8:07 & 13:01 indoors. none of them match those especially as a package.

to answer your question, Ritz certainly has done workouts after track races and Kennedy did very insane workouts when with Komen, Ngeny etc.

there was some workout with that group that began with a sub 5:00 2,000m, then a sub 4:00 1,600m, and then more workout. might have been 1200, 800, 400. it was either Komen or Ngeny that were well under 5:00 and 4:00 at the beginning of the workout w/ Kennedy just over.

Geez, didn't any of you guys ever triple or quadruple in high school track? 4x8 - 1600 - 800 - 3200, all balls to the wall?

webfoot wrote:

HRE wrote:

I did 100-150 mile weeks for six years. I could never do any sort of interval session after a race. Cool down jogs were difficult enough. I'm not in any way comparing myself to Rupp but having done the sort of mileage he has done makes the post race session he did mind boggling. And that's why so many posters have a hard time believing it.

This is the problem with you yahoos. You are light years away from what Rupp can do. HRE's PRs are a modest at best(4:48, 9:23, 15:34). Rupp's quality and volume of training, as well has his talent, are in another galaxy compared to you. Give me a break.

HRE, what the hell were you doing running 100-150mi/week at your talent level? You must love running.

I was trying to overcome my talent level. I was a LOT slower before running that much.

Why do I think Rupp can run near 4:00 for a mile after four reps at 4:16-4:21 after an 8:07 two mile and I can could barely manage a cool down jog? Is that the question?

I really don't know, but given malmo's fetal position and three hour naps after races and Jonesy's line about not being able to stand up after races, I'm inclined to think someone should have hit Rupp with a board on Saturday.

Really, who can say? Several people have chimed in here with accounts of doing interval sessions after races so it is possible at least for some and others have mentioned doubling at track meets. I don't know that following a 4:35 mile with a 2:02 half mile is as demanding for a runner at that level as an 8:07 two mile followed by 5 x 1600 at 4:21-4:01 is for a world class guy, but obviously, some of us recover from really hard efforts faster than others.

In that vein, I once ran a mile PR at an indoor meet the night after running a marathon PR the previous day and then came back with one of my better two miles at the same meet, though the times were a shade behind Rupp's. But I don't think I was unusually slow at recovering.

But the OP wonders why so many people wonder about how the NOP guys can pull off these sorts of post race sessions. I don't know how anyone can not wonder. Wondering is different than accusing, but I can't see how anyone could not wonder how these sorts of things can happen, especially when you hear about all the "cutting edge" technology NOP has at their disposal.

HRE, you always talk about YOU when you make these arguments. That amuses me. Regardless, you cannot simply extrapolate Rupp's times to your times. At Rupp's level, fitness and recovery are a whole different ballgame to the fitness and recovery of people like you at your "peak".

There is, as of yet, no evidence of a "central governor."

Thank you for your replies, history lessons, webfoot and HRE.

Let's say I wrote that I am totally blown away and impressed by what Rupp did at BU this month. Why would those performances have been so impressive to me? Obviously for the same reasons that everyone else in the sport is impressed, because we've all raced as hard as we could at various distances and are impressed by someone who can go so much faster, then come back a few minutes later and do a workout that not very many people could manage.

Do you really think that someone who had no experience in the sport would have reacted to Rupp's performances in the same way as serious, experienced runners do? Probably not and it's because those people don't have the same experiences that we have. I think all of us who are in this discussion are commenting from our own experiences so I'm not sure if everyone here amuses you or if I'm just particularly good at it.

I was interested to see that Craig Virgin had about the same reaction to all this as I did and he too, is using his own experiences as the basis for his comments. Even if fitness and recovery are a whole different ballgame for Rupp than for someone like me, and I don't know I agree with that, Rupp and Virgin were definitely playing the same ballgame and Virgin reacted pretty much like I have.

Yes, I already acknowledged that. That reality may or may not have anything to do with post-PR/AR-hard workouts. Staying healthy probably has a lot to do with it. things like artificial altitude may be another.

yes, with salazar probably, but how much with his previous coaches prior to running 12:56 ? If hardly ever, it's hard to say that because he did it a couple times with Salazar that's what led to 12:56/60:00.

That's irrelevant to your point/our discussion. No one was saying: don't do extremely hard workouts. People were questioning the wisdom of doing hard workouts AFTER setting AR's.

[quote]HRE wrote:

Let's say I wrote that I am totally blown away and impressed by what Rupp did at BU this month. Why would those performances have been so impressive to me? Obviously for the same reasons that everyone else in the sport is impressed, because we've all raced as hard as we could at various distances and are impressed by someone who can go so much faster, then come back a few minutes later and do a workout that not very many people could manage.

quote]

I once ran a 4:17 1600 and then a 9:16 3200 in the same evening. I wasn't curling up and crawling after the first race. I was tired and got beat, and PR'd, but I cooled down, rested and then warmed up and raced again for another PR at 3200, but still wasn't the winner. The second race did not feel as if I had raced (especially PR'd) a few hours earlier. I guess it was because of my training. I certainly wasn't the only one doubling with success in high school.

I think what would have really blown peoples minds would have been to see Rupps high school sessions or his freshman year. He was doing workouts (and race + workouts) back then that would have indicated he was ready to make a US international team already. The truth was he was working harder than most professionals waaaay back then. That is part of why he couldn't close out and win the NCAA championships. He was redlining and training through season after season and when others had obvious peaks and tapers, Rupp was just grinding it up and up. If you looked at the season of most NCAA runners, it probably looked like going up one side of a mountain and coming down the other side. For Rupp it was probably more like a rolling meadow that was tilted up. He didn't really come back down close to square one and then start over again. He just kept the foot on the gas, only letting off a little a key points of the year.

The "hay is in the barn" concept was different. It was more "alot of hay is in the barn, but there's more to get".

Tyrannnosaurus Rexing wrote:

perfect pacing not so much wrote:and Kennedy did very insane workouts when with Komen, Ngeny etc.

there was some workout with that group that began with a sub 5:00 2,000m, then a sub 4:00 1,600m, and then more workout. might have been 1200, 800, 400. it was either Komen or Ngeny that were well under 5:00 and 4:00 at the beginning of the workout w/ Kennedy just over.

That's irrelevant to your point/our discussion. No one was saying: don't do extremely hard workouts. People were questioning the wisdom of doing hard workouts AFTER setting AR's.

I didn't take that way, nor was that what I meant. All I meant was that these guys were starting out a workout with a sub 5:00 2000 meter and continuing right on with a sub 4:00 1600 and then several more components. For Komen I believe it was 4:55 or better for 2000m and 3:56 for 1600m. They didn't get to sit for 15 minutes and then shake out and start a 4:20 1600. Just straight back at it.

To me this was MUCH harder than what Galen did. Forget that it was an AR (relatively soft), just think of the effort relative to a 3:50/12:58/26:48 guy. He didn't run out of his mind, he ran inline with his ability, then had a big rest, some very slow mile repeats, then over 6 minutes rest, mostly sitting and then a fast 1600.

I think what this whole group (Komen/Kennedy/Ngeny etc) did was much harder.

Could they have opened up with an 8:07 two mile and then done what Galen did after? I think Komen would have strolled through it and Kennedy would have been very close to what Galen did.

Damn Obama!!