Renato Canova wrote:
I want to ask officially to test, with the new system, the blood samples and urine of Saaeed Shaheen (2005 in Helsinki, if possible, and 2006 from World Cup, when he won both 3000 steeple and 5000m).
I'm tired to see many don't believe his record is clean, and, if possible, I want (and he wants) that people bad thinking MUST shut up.
You have picked the right place to ask this. A post on an internet message board is as official as it gets.
Colorado miler, what I say is that for me is not something impossible to run 3'26" with the talent of El Guerrouj and with his professionalism (which, I repeat, is very much superior to the professionalism of best Kenyan athletes).
About your doubts, I disagree, for the following reasons :
a) the fact he was able to last at the top for so long time, having also during every season a great continuity, in my opinion can confirm an athlete is clean, not an athlete is doped. With doping, it's possible to have a peak lasting only for a very short period, because, if you compete frequently, and of course you need to stop using doping for not becoming positive, you go, step by step, to lose the doping benefits (in 1500m more evident than in long distances), and your shape decreases.
In the case of EG, he had many seasons with WR at the end of them, and great continuity during several months, showing a balance in his performances that are not the same way showed by doped athletes (look, for example, the development of the seasons of Boulami, Ramzi or Kaouch).
b) if you know Maroccan athletics, you need to know there were different clans, based not only about economical factors, but also about different vision of training (including in this vision also the vision of doping).
For example, Jaouad Gharib is an athlete completely clean, and was Always separated by the other Marathon runners, because his training was much more consistant than the training of the other best specialists. He preferred to create a great aerobic capacity running high volume of km at high intensity, Others preferred to use some illegal help with less mileage.
El Guerrouj was one using high mileage and great continuity in training, and practically never had any injury.
I can have doubts about athletes able to do workouts of very high lactic intensity with little aerobic support, because in this case the support comes from some doping.
But El Guerrouj never was part of this category.
c) I don't understand your point about 800m. What does it mean "you don run 800 for hiding doping" ? So, if you are doped, you can run the WR of 1500m without being tested positive, but if you run 800m you are positive ?
d) Why he retired ? Because, after winning 2 gold medals in Olympics (which was his dream), and having all the WR, and having 30 years, and being the number 1 in 1500m from 1996 (so, 9 year of dominance), he lost motivation, having already reached ALL the goals he could reach (and the real life,when you are an athlete, has yet to begin).
Why many of you don't think that an athlete can lose the will to sacriface everything in his life (what he needs in order to be the number one for long time), and can't have instead the willand the ambition to do something else, after winning everything in his sport ?
If a top athlete has respect for his career, he has to retire when is still at the top, because to prolong the career without the same motivation can't produce the same performances of before. If you continue, can be for two different reasons only :
1. You have an incredible passion for running (for example, the case of Haile Gebrselassie), and you like to run and to compete till when you stay alive
2. You run only more for money.
And EG can't be included in any of these categories.
And another thing regards the Olympic final.
I don't want, also in this case, say Makhloufi is surely clean. I want instead to explain WHY I think he was clean.
1. He train for two months in Iten, and I had the opportunity to see him in training. He suffered a lot, doing long intervals in altitude (type of training never done before), developing a volume of aerobic power absolutely very much higher than what the busted maroccans normally developed.
2. About the Olympic final, the real fact is that ALL THE KENYANS were completely out of shape, for the very bad plan the Kenyan head coach (Julius Kirwa) decided to use during the last month, not following the plans that the coach of the athletes prepared for them.
Silas Kiplagat was my athlete, Nixon Chepseba was coached by Patrick Sang. I and Patrick, before the beginning of the official training camp, met together, and decided a common programme (with only very little individual differences) they had to follow during the last 4 weeks.
Julius Kirwa decided in total different way : he cancelled every long run (using only jogging for limited time), all test longer than 400m (never one 1200, some 600 or 500m), and only more maximal intensity. Practically, one month of Lactic workouts only.
This completely killed the shape of every athletes, bringing Asbel Kiprop to an injury, destroying the specificability to recover following rounds of Silas and Nixon, and empting the nervous tank.
The reality is that Makhlouf won against nobody. Not for lacking respect with him, but do you really think the final was a high level competition, with Manzano winning silver and Ingebritsen better than all the Kenyans ?
The impression Makhlouf gave during the last 300m is more connected with the fact Silas Kiplagat slow down a lot than with his high speed. Nothing to do with the last 300m of Ramzi in Osaka, for example, when really he won because absolutely the strongest.
Ben L Wrong wrote:
Tygart wrote:They can still be busted the same way LA was. He didn't fail a single test, either.
Lance Armstrong was busted by dozens of witnesses in a federal investigation.
As for El G case, I dont remember a similar investigation opened by Morocco Officials, or Morocco justice, or WADA.
And I don't remember athletes, officials or teammates saying that El G was on something.
Remember that for some coaches, 3:26 is not an unbeatable record. Many people thinks that 3:24 is the limit.
No, it's 4:00 mile that is impossible.
jay kay wrote:
Red Arrows wrote:I don't think it's a dumb thing to point out at all.
Top milers from Bannister, Elliott, Snell, Walker, Scott, Ovett, etc, etc, all ran 800m, if just to use as a sharpener before a champs. EL G could easily have run a few low key 800s in Morocco or some of the 2nd tier European meets against 2nd tier athletes, but never did. Not once in 11 years. For an elite miler this is almost unheard of, and somewhat suspicious.
This suspicion is heightened all the more when all this noise was made from inside Morocco over a supposed 1:42.7 tt.
I'm sorry, but if he could run that in training, which I don't believe he ever did (was once asked in an interview what he could run for 800 and he said, 1:44!?....so that straight away casts doubt on a 1:42 tt), then he would surely have run them frequently with confidence on the circuit, if just rarely.
I think the previous poster who brought up his lack of 800s had a valid point. I don't think he ran them because he would probably not have run much faster than 1:45/46. Just like Lagat, who despite several runs against good opposition never broke 1:46 over 800.
That's not suspicious at all. All or most of those guys that you mentioned are speed-based milers. El G was not a speed-based miler. That's why he ran 2000s, 3000s, and 5000s. How many of those events did those guys run?
Also, El G was a serious competitor who wanted to always win. He didn't want to compete in any event with a high risk of losing. And so what if he would have only run 1:45 or so? Are we saying that not only is running fast a sign of doping, but so is running slow? So EVERYONE is a doper because they either run slow or fast?
He ran 1:46 for his last 800m in Australia.
Here say but true wrote:
ososk wrote:Your buddy is an idiot. Some people actually know how to hold on to their form. Tell your buddy he needs to work on his core.
Form and strain from exhaustion are different things. Work on his core? What are you, 12?
You are talking about form. A strong core helps to maintain form when tired. My age has nothing to do with this.
Renato Canova wrote:
a) the fact he was able to last at the top for so long time, having also during every season a great continuity, in my opinion can confirm an athlete is clean, not an athlete is doped. With doping, it's possible to have a peak lasting only for a very short period, because, if you compete frequently, and of course you need to stop using doping for not becoming positive, you go, step by step, to lose the doping benefits (in 1500m more evident than in long distances), and your shape decreases.
In the case of EG, he had many seasons with WR at the end of them, and great continuity during several months, showing a balance in his performances that are not the same way showed by doped athletes (look, for example, the development of the seasons of Boulami, Ramzi or Kaouch).
Renato, I don't suspect too much of El G, in part for your arguments.
But with respect to the "great continuity", I have to say that between the early 90's and 2004, not only El G had great continuity. You had Lagat, Ngeny, Cacho, Morceli, Komen...all of them running with great times EVERY MEET, EVERY WEEKEND (nowadays, this is not common except Asbel Kiprop).
Silas Kiplagat had injuries, so he couldn't hold his form, Ndiku was not "regular" in his races, and moreover...Makhloufi, Manzano, Iguider, Centrowitz, Ingebritsen, Gebremedhin, Willis, Driouch...all these athletes have (if you look all their times of the last 2 seasons) as a parameter 1 good race and 3 average or subpar races (speaking of times), specially Manzano, which outkicks almost everyone in one meeting, and the next weekend, jogs a 3:40.
Why in the 1992-2004 period there were more talent, loaded fields AND continuity in the 1500m, in comparison with the 2004-2013 period? Same question goes for the 5000-10000m.
Makhloufi is suspicious because he talks funny.
i don't believe for a minute that renato really believes
el g was clean!
we are supposed to believe that somehow 1 clean guy was able to dominate when there was no test or limited testing for epo
and a host of other peds????
the epo worked ok for ramzi renato!! he wasn't struggling down the back straight when he won all those gold medals
But El G outworked the cheaters.
He didn't nee EPO to run 3.26. What is so special about 3.26 anyway? And why are people so obsessed with drugs?
jono wrote:
He didn't nee EPO to run 3.26. What is so special about 3.26 anyway? And why are people so obsessed with drugs?
Ventolin's suggested lines for Jim Ryun on a synthetic 70's track.
45.7 / 1'40.9 -> 2'09.95 , 3'25.34 , 3'42.25
45.8 / 1'40.9 -> 2'09.87 , 3'25.00 , 3'41.84
45.9 / 1'40.9 -> 2'09.79 , 3'24.66 , 3'41.44
45.7 / 1'40.8 -> 2'09.78 , 3'24.98 , 3'41.85
45.8 / 1'40.8 -> 2'09.70 , 3'24.64 , 3'41.44
45.9 / 1'40.8 -> 2'09.62 , 3'24.30 , 3'41.03
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4461505IAAF article about El G scratching for Helsinki WC's in 2005.
EL GUERROUJ CONFIRMS HE WILL NOT RUN IN HELSINKI
Rabat, MoroccoThe double Olympic gold medallist, and four-time World champion at 1500m, Hicham El Guerrouj has confirmed to the Royal Moroccan Athletics Federation (FRMA) that he will not participate in the 10th edition of the IAAF World Championships in Athletics, Helsinki, Finland (6 – 14 August).
It will be the first time that El Guerrouj has been absent from the biennial World Championships since he made his debut in 1995 when he took the silver medal.
In a statement to l'Agence Marocaine de Presse (MAP), El Guerrouj, 31, made his regrets about his non-participation in Helsinki.
“I am sad and bitter to be absent for the first time from the World Championships, but I will be present in Helsinki to support my colleagues.”
“My preparations had gone well until the end of June and I had aspirations at 5000m in Helsinki.”
“I have hesitated in taking this decision until late, and have discussed it with the President of the National Olympic Committee, the President of the Federation, with my trainer, my family and my team.”
“I have made enormous sacrifices and undergone many self sacrifices in defence of the Moroccan national colours since my participation in the 1992 World Junior championships in Seoul from where I took the bronze medal at 5000m, and I have always considered myself to have been a soldier at the service of my homeland.”
El Guerrouj also indicated that 2005 would now be a sabbatical year for him competitively, that he would take a break from running, and that he would restart training possibly with the intention of competing in the next indoor season.
Mohammed Benchrif for the IAAF
http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/el-guerrouj-confirms-he-will-not-run-in-helsi
"I have always considered myself to have been a soldier at the service of my homeland"
indeed..... he did what he was told
took the stuff he was given
Adil KAOUCH raced with Hicham El Guerrouj and even was his pace maker and some international events and he tested positive for EPO or some other PED. I guarantee that Hicham was NOT clean. His coaches had a way of beating the system. Just as Lance Armstrong was able to beat the system for so long.
Have they developed a test for AICAR? Are the current tests for GW501516 reliable? I think one pro cyclist tested positive for GW, but I would guess the use of these and perhaps similar ppar agonists has been widespread for many years. I have absolutely no clue if El G used them, though.
NOTClean_ wrote:
Adil KAOUCH raced with Hicham El Guerrouj and even was his pace maker and some international events and he tested positive for EPO or some other PED. I guarantee that Hicham was NOT clean. His coaches had a way of beating the system. Just as Lance Armstrong was able to beat the system for so long.
So why did Kaouch test positive then?
his Athens urine
'And don't forget that, as morphology, El Guerrouj was more similar to Kenyans than to the other Maroccans, more muscular, like Ramzi of Kaouch.'
He wasn't born at altitude though. Name 1 true elite Kenan not born at altitude
Surely he does not fit into your catagory of altitude runners not being helped by EPO
and one more thing what about all the other top level Morrocan runners busted for EPO
He was at it, I suspect all 1500m going sub 3:30 with poor basic speed, El G, Lagat and now Mo used EPO
Do you really believe only sprinters dope?
Mo farah is a joke
1500m marathon his choice to dope
guerrouj hammered all the Spanish kenyan Moroccan dopers that says it all