* wrote:
Webb's ranking dropped to #6 only because he under performed with his 8th place finish.
Without that bad race he would have been ranked higher.
Dude, you just proved yourself that World finals finish barely matters in the rankings. The answer is in your own post.
It is hard to put Jenny on this list. Yeah that NCAA was bad but everyone has bad races at one point or another. It happens. If you list everyone who has had a bad race it is a long list.A lot of the one offs have some history that might not be well known. I mean was Spivey a choke artist for not making the team in 88? He ran 3:31 that year. If you don't know the details you go yeah but if you new he missed months of training you then go here is a guy that couldn't get back in shape in time.And my understanding was the Suzy performed quite well when it mattered:)
RuKiddingMe!! wrote:
Suzy Favor Hamilton - olympics
JennyB - NCAA XC
Jim Ryun
weiojj wrote:
He's definitely the most talented U.S. miler ever. He ran 3:53 in high-school! To say he didn't have the talent to win Olympic gold?
I agree he's the most talented American distance runner ever (along with or just behind Ryun), and he actually matched that talent in his senior career which is way more than most HS phenoms. Look at the last 4 male HS record breakers - Webb, Rupp, Fernandez, Verzbicas. Webb is #2 of these 4 in post-HS success. Look at the top 3 finishers at Footlocker from past years and you'll see a few big names and a bunch of guys who never made it as pros. It's remarkable that the top 3 in 2001, Webb, Ritz, and Hall, all were still successful 6 years later, because that rarely happens.
However, 3:53 / 3:35 at age 18 does not mean much on the world stage. There are Kenyans who do that every year, even if you assume most of them are age cheats, and most 3:35 Kenyans aren't getting into big meats anyways.
A gold medal is possible for a guy like Webb, more possible if he had stayed at the top for more years. But unless you're a WR-caliber freak, you need to also be lucky, that not everyone will be on top of their game.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Jim Ryun
Are we operating under Ventolin's assumption that he was a 3:24 guy?
In 2004 Asafa Powell wins his Olympic semi with the fastest time of the two heats.
He goes on to get 5th in the final.
Asafa Powell set the WR in 2005 at 9.77 and had the three fastest times in the world that year but was hurt and did not race at WC's that year.
He tied that WR twice in 2006.
Asafa Powell set the world record again in 2007 with a 9.74. Plus ran 9.78 twice again giving him the three fastest times.
He won every race that year except for WC's.
Tyson Gay's best that year was 9.84 (.10 slower than Powell)
Powell's Bronze that year was a big choke.
In 2008, Powell improves his PR to 9.72, 2nd fastest time on the year behind Bolt.
But he finished 5th at the Olympics.
Powell got Bronze behind Bolt and Gay in 2009. That was his best performance.
2011 - Powell had the second fastest time in the world at 9.78 and won several races. But he was injured and did not run at WC's. No medal.
2012 - Powell had the 5th fastest time in the world and finished 8th at the Olympics, pulling up lame.
And this summer he had the 5th fastest time of the year but was pulled form the World team with a positive test.
So, When did Powell not perform when it mattered most?
Every time he could.
Hardloper wrote:
* wrote:Webb's ranking dropped to #6 only because he under performed with his 8th place finish.
Without that bad race he would have been ranked higher.
Dude, you just proved yourself that World finals finish barely matters in the rankings. The answer is in your own post.
What?
Lagat was ranked #2, Webb #6.
Those rankings were completely affected by how they raced in Osaka.
Lagat had done nothing else that year.
Steve Prefontaine. He was a medal favorite in the 1976 Olympics, but he didn't even show up.
1) Sebastian Coe - WR holder over 800m and only Silvers on his resume
2) Wilson Kipketer - WR holder and 0 Olympic Gold
3) Alan Webb - no Olympic or World medal
4) Steve Holman - this was his legacy
5) Khalid Khannouchi - no Olympic or World medals
Coe getting two Silvers isn't quite a huge under performance.
Kipketer wasn't allowed to compete in the 1996 Olympics when he was in his prime. He did win the 1995 and 1997 World Championships as well as 199 where he was allowed to represent Denmark.
He snagged a Silver in the 2000 Olympics.
Not a good example of a choker.
Webb has been discussed.
Holman should have made every US team from 1992-2000 but he only made two teams.
Khannouchi - did he ever line up in a championship race in his prime?
* wrote:
Khannouchi - did he ever line up in a championship race in his prime?
No, he got his citizenship a day too late to be eligible in 2004. Was injured for years, got healthy and trained for 3 months for the Olympic trials, miraculously held 3rd place until he got passed by a late charging Brian Sell and finished 4th. Definitely doesn't deserve to be on this list.
* wrote:
Kipketer wasn't allowed to compete in the 1996 Olympics when he was in his prime. He did win the 1995 and 1997 World Championships as well as 199 where he was allowed to represent Denmark.
He snagged a Silver in the 2000 Olympics.
Not a good example of a choker.
Agree on this one. Actually I don't think he should have even been close in 2004 but he managed to snag a medal.
Impending Choke wrote:
Webb was fast. It mattered most to perform in championships. He couldn't. Therefore Webb was a fast runner who couldn't (and still can't and never will) perform when it matters most. He can run a time trial to be sure, but he can't perform in a race.
I completely agree!
Not sure if you grasped what I was saying. I was trying to explain to the poster I responded to, that Webb was the best on paper prior to the 2007 Worlds. The poster seemed to be down playing Webb's ability and expectation to do well, as if it wasn't a surprise he came only 7th or where ever he ended up!
On the contrary, he bombed, for whatever reason, and didn't perform to his ability when it mattered.
Maybe he was unwell, I don't know, but for all his talent and potential he hasn't produced the good when it mattered most.
Good practice athletes are a dime a dozen. It is not unusual to know a great workout runner who never shows up for a race .
I can close my eyes and point around New England alone, where there are hundreds of big and small programs, and there are tons of good runners who choke when it comes to a big race. Some choke at every race.
Red Arrow wrote:
The poster seemed to be down playing Webb's ability and expectation to do well, as if it wasn't a surprise he came only 7th or where ever he ended up!
It wasn't. Give it up, you were obviously not clued into the international running scene in the mid-2000's decade if you think Webb deserved to finish in the top 6.
* wrote:
Khannouchi - did he ever line up in a championship race in his prime?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardloper wrote:
"No, he got his citizenship a day too late to be eligible in 2004. Was injured for years, got healthy and trained for 3 months for the Olympic trials, miraculously held 3rd place until he got passed by a late charging Brian Sell and finished 4th. Definitely doesn't deserve to be on this list."
Ah, no. Khannouchi was in 5th. Sell passed Dan Browne to take 3rd. Khannouchi was closing at the end but he was never top 3. Sell broke from the pack to chase the top 3. Khannouchi did later, but it was too late. Injuries and become a US citizen late in his career prevented him from medaling for the US. He did run the WC for the US but DNF'd (I don't recall what year). He never represented Morocco at the Worlds or Olympics before he became a USC.
Khannouchi's performance in London 2002 would be enough to take him off the list. That race was the marathon of the century (at least up to that point). All though arguably all the talk about Geb and Tergat and which one of those two was going to win took the pressure off Khannouchi somewhat.
Tyson Gay pretty much did not race, or race close to his best, until the championships. And he always had great performances there.
Not much of a question, though, he obviously just ignored the rest of the year and trained for finals.
I agree with Meb. No better than a 2:08 guy who consistently did well at Olympics and even WON a major post-2007.
It's easy for guys in our age group-- I'll turn 60 in two weeks-- to forget particular details, but you guys are absolutely correct, even if we get a detail or two wrong on specifics. The guy had a WR 27:13 and never medaled in the Olys, WC, or even the Euro Champs, if memory serves. He once ran off the track and said he had to go to the bathroom mid-race. The word "choke" is thrown around very casually these days, but in Mamede's case.... draw your own conclusions.
It's easy for guys in our age group-- I'll turn 60 in two weeks-- to forget particular details, but you guys are absolutely correct, even if we get a detail or two wrong on specifics. The guy had a WR 27:13 and never medaled in the Olys, WC, or even the Euro Champs, if memory serves. He once ran off the track and said he had to go to the bathroom mid-race. The word "choke" is thrown around very casually these days, but in Mamede's case.... draw your own conclusions.