Gamera wrote:
Possible excuses:
- she didn\'t benefit from the EPO because she\'s African
- it was unintentional - some local Kenyan pharmacist gave it to her. She didn\'t know what it was, and he didn\'t realize she would be breaking any rules
- this is an isolated incident involving a second-tier athlete operating entirely by themselves. The really good runners don\'t need EPO and wouldn\'t benefit anyway.
Include this one
- Africans don\'t take, non-africans do sell.
[quote]rekrunner wrote:
Your post fails for many reasons, way beyond your ability to use a spell checker. The main failure is lack of evidence and substance to form a basis for reasoning.
What do you suggest we should do? Increase testing? The IAAF introduced out of competition EPO testing in 2003. In 2003, "urine" test" existed for EPO (so while blood testing is important, urine testing is also significant). The IAAF introduced the bio-passport system in 2010. What is the next step, for you?
Kenyans and Ethiopians have dominated for decades. How can doping be so local for so long?
[quote]
Very poor reasoning by an unintelligent person. Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans. You are ignoring all rational evidence and trying hard to believe what you want to believe. There is significant circumstantial evidence linking many top africans to doping. To think they are clean requires willful ignorance.
cmon now boi wrote:
Very poor reasoning by an unintelligent person. Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans. You are ignoring all rational evidence and trying hard to believe what you want to believe. There is significant circumstantial evidence linking many top africans to doping. To think they are clean requires willful ignorance.
Right, and what was the rest of the world doing at this time?
Dopping ruins any sport and anyone caught dopping (+ whoever else is proven to be involved) should be banned for life. With that said and done, a dopping Kenyan/Ethiopian is faster that a dopping anyone else.
rekrunner wrote:
Your post fails for many reasons, way beyond your ability to use a spell checker. The main failure is lack of evidence and substance to form a basis for reasoning.
Kenyans and Ethiopians have dominated for decades. How can doping be so local for so long?
cmon now boi wrote:
Very poor reasoning by an unintelligent person. Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans.
That's right. "Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans." Except for those guys in the 60s. And 70s.
You accuse rekrunner of being intelligent, and yet you make the stupidest post of the whole thread.
The top athletes in the rest of the world was also doping, as they have done since 1970.
More races should go to US citizens only pay day.
A certain amount of luster will be lost, but that will be balanced by a hefty upswing of interest in the races. Simply, US citizens racing one another is of greater interest to US spectators than a dozen doped up foreigners, no matter how fast they run.
With the proliferation of drug performances, the sport is going down hill rapidly. We are beginning to enter the land of cycling - if we are not already there.
Are we wrong to put a greater emphasis on helping the US runner? Even if you object to that, you still have to look at a sport that is beginning to be inundated by more and more suspicious athletes.
Yeah coz American runners are clean and the East Africans are all doping.
I agree that generalizations can be inaccurate.
However, there have been at least 15 Kenyan distance runners who have tested positive for banned PEDs over the last 2 years, several from the top training groups in Kenya.
Imagine the sh1t storm on these boards if, over a similar time frame, 15 US distance runners tested positive for banned substances including guys/gals from AlSal's and Schumacher's groups ....
doppers: go away!
That's funny, I didn't supply any reasoning, but asked a bunch of questions to someone name "Let's do something", asking what more we can do, given that the IAAF is already at the state of the art.One of the questions is "how can doping be so local for so long?" In cycling, doping knew no boundary. Americans, Germans, Italians, Kazhaks, French, English, etc. all knew about the dirty doping secret. Even in T&F, sprinters (men and women) and Moroccan milers took EPO. Yet somehow, since the 1990's, only for distance running, no Americans, no English, no Europeans, no Australians were able to figure it out, like their sprinting and cycling colleagues.
rekrunner wrote:
Your post fails for many reasons, way beyond your ability to use a spell checker. The main failure is lack of evidence and substance to form a basis for reasoning.
What do you suggest we should do? Increase testing? The IAAF introduced out of competition EPO testing in 2003. In 2003, "urine" test" existed for EPO (so while blood testing is important, urine testing is also significant). The IAAF introduced the bio-passport system in 2010. What is the next step, for you?
Kenyans and Ethiopians have dominated for decades. How can doping be so local for so long?
cmon now boi wrote:
Very poor reasoning by an unintelligent person. Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans. You are ignoring all rational evidence and trying hard to believe what you want to believe. There is significant circumstantial evidence linking many top africans to doping. To think they are clean requires willful ignorance.
[/quote]
That's right. "Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans." Except for those guys in the 60s. And 70s.
.[/quote]
Africans did not run fast in the 60s and 70s. No times under 1:43, 3:31, 13:05, 27:00.
How dare he!
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
You accuse rekrunner of being intelligent, ...
lunchbox thread wrote:
That's right. "Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans." Except for those guys in the 60s. And 70s.
.[/quote]
Africans did not run fast in the 60s and 70s. No times under 1:43, 3:31, 13:05, 27:00.[/quote]
By this logic...no one did. 13:05 wasn't broken until 1982. 27:00 was't broken until the 90s.
William Sigei in 1994. I was zhere.
LM wrote:
lunchbox thread wrote:That's right. "Kenyans/Ethiopians started running fast right when EPO came out and Hermens/Rosa started working with africans." Except for those guys in the 60s. And 70s.
.
Africans did not run fast in the 60s and 70s. No times under 1:43, 3:31, 13:05, 27:00.[/quote]
By this logic...no one did. 13:05 wasn't broken until 1982. 27:00 was't broken until the 90s.[/quote]
Exactly - kenyans/ethiopians got drastically better right when epo was introduced. Also the same time EPO-linked managers/coaches started working with them. Before this they were not world-beaters. After this they were. Coincidence? You'd be a fool looking for a hero to worship to say yes. You'd be one of the few (but vocal) fools on this board who believe this.
Exactly - kenyans/ethiopians got drastically better right when epo was introduced. Also the same time EPO-linked managers/coaches started working with them. Before this they were not world-beaters. After this they were. Coincidence? You'd be a fool looking for a hero to worship to say yes. You'd be one of the few (but vocal) fools on this board who believe this.
Americans have also gotten drastically better recently. By your logic, Americans are also cheating.
right. it was the influx of new African talent that changed
athletics (track). Not EPO or other types of dopping.
With a few exceptions, the east Africans are clean.
yyy wrote:
right. it was the influx of new African talent that changed
athletics (track). Not EPO or other types of dopping.
With a few exceptions, the east Africans are clean.
But it was, at the very same time, the influence of EPO that changed cycling.
Why the difference?
A few general points:
- I can't speak for everyone, but it doesn't have to be a matter of "Kenyans are dirty, but Americans are clean". Every nation cheats to one degree or another. I would assume people of any nationality have a tendency to cheat if the rewards are tempting enough, the drugs are available, and somebody has the know-how to administer them without being detected.
- One can accept that Kenyans are in general better runners, AND that they cheat. I have no problem with the claim that on a level playing field, Kenya/Ethiopia/Somalia etc will produce more elite runners than the USA/Britain/Germany etc. I just don't think that means they don't also cheat. Just like the US produces way more quality 400m runners than any other nation, but still, some of them cheat.
- It would be hard to argue with the claim that a rapid drop in almost all the distance world records coincided with the spread of EPO in sports. It's well-established from cycling history that EPO became prevalent fairly suddenly in the early 90s. That was also when track's distance records were lowered by large margins. Now, you can argue that this was just a coincidence, but you can't deny the timing.
- Given the fact that cheating DEFINITELY DOES take place in Kenya (by which I mean, at least some elite runners from Kenya have tested positive); and given the fact that EPO seems to be rather easily available (by which I mean, when I get the flu, I don't think there is a doctor or pharmacist in the whole US who would propose injecting me with EPO, but apparently this can happen in Kenya); and finally given the fact that Kenyans over the last several years have suddenly produced literally dozens of marathoners running under the world record of only a decade or two ago, mostly managed by Europeans who presumably aren't doing it as philanthropical work - you can at least understand that some people might be a little suspicious.
namecheck wrote:
ABOUT the KENYANS DOPING.. Its all to stolen the FOCUS in New York Marathon... Because in New York Marathon THERE's NO ANTIDOPING LOL... they just announced.. BUT never did..LOL... The juices RUNNERS are there.. everybody know the Felipe Possos athletes are juices.. and never been checked in New York.. I know you gys will no publish this BECAUSE it TRUE.. There is many WHO FAKE INJURIES too.. because they got been hunted by CADA and or another Organisation.. LETS GET LIFE...
Wouldn't be surprised