Cheers to Bernard Lagat

TLW wrote:

Explain? I think it's a good comparison.

RJ ran a PR and world record at 39. Lagat ran 3:26 in his prime and has got slower ever since. How is that a good comparison?

Probably hard to understand for someone who still doesn't understand the A/B sample facts after 9 years have passed.

Lagat is what, a few seconds off his PBs 15 years later? ~4-5 in the 1500.

The RJ and BL comparison is more dealing with age and insane performances at that age. In that metric it IS a good comparison, and please don't bring up a women's indoor world record compared to mens.

lagat fan, how common do you think PEDs are in distance running? Just curious as to your stance on it, who you think is doping, etc.

TLW wrote:

First - If it's appears to good to be true it probably is; meaning Regina Jacobs otherworldly performances near 40 and Lagat's otherworldly performances near 40. Similar situation. It's too good to be true.

Jaouad Gharib started late in life and runs the marathon where success is more realistic for a mid 30 athlete.

Having said that, MANY people have suspicions about him and so do I about many Moroccan athletes.

The fact that Lagat is setting AR's for 2 miles and running sub 13 is abnormal at his age. It appears too good to be true.

Nationality is HUGE in sports. Russia, Morocco, Spain, China, Turkey, USA. You understand that in some countries there are systematic doping taking place, right?

Why does 12:58 for second in a circuit race at 38, for a guy who could have scared the world record 10 years ago seem to good to be true?

Why is success more realistic for a marathoner than for a 5000 meter runner?

Who is suspicious of Gharib? And why? So you are suspicious of Moroccans? Clearly that means Lagat is a doper!

An AR and a sub-13 are abnormal at any age.

Are you suggesting that there is "systematic doping" of 5000 meter runners going on in the US? What is your evidence? Who is running this system?

Add to that:

Lagat ran his fastest 1500m at age 26. He got within one second of that again at age 29. He was three seconds off at age 31 and 32. The best he's gotten since then is 6+ seconds within his lifetime best at 36. He was 7 seconds off at 36, 8 seconds off at 37, and now 10 seconds off this year at 38.

He set his 5000m best at age 36, which is impressive of course, but if Lagat had focused on the 5000m when he was a sub-3:30 man, I think we can agree he would have run much faster.

Jacobs, on the other hand, set her lifetime outdoor 1500m best at the age of 36 and ran within one second of it at ages 37, 39 before breaking the world indoor record at age 39.

Sam W. wrote:

Why does 12:58 for second in a circuit race at 38, for a guy who could have scared the world record 10 years ago seem to good to be true?

Why is success more realistic for a marathoner than for a 5000 meter runner?

Who is suspicious of Gharib? And why? So you are suspicious of Moroccans? Clearly that means Lagat is a doper!

An AR and a sub-13 are abnormal at any age.

Are you suggesting that there is "systematic doping" of 5000 meter runners going on in the US? What is your evidence? Who is running this system?

12:58 at age 38 is unheard of so it's going to be met with either praise or scrutiny.

Success is more realistic at the marathon for 30-35 aged men because it's a strength event not a speed.

So when a 35 year old runs a good marathon it's more realistic. When a nearly 39 year old runs 12:58 and sets an indoor record for 2 miles it is more outlandish.

Ughh...yes I am suspicious of Moroccans. El G's rabbit busted for EPO, Saïd Aouita encouraging Australian athletes to dope, and so on. Strong history of doping, similar to US sprinters.

Systematic doping in the US meaning BALCO for example and the US sprint scene.

TLW wrote:

Lagat is what, a few seconds off his PBs 15 years later? ~4-5 in the 1500.

Lagat

26: 1500m PB

27: +1.3 seconds

28: +4.2 seconds

29: +1.1 seconds

30: +3.0 seconds

31: +3.3 seconds

32: +7.1 seconds (converted from mile)

33: +6.4 seconds

34: +6.2 seconds

35: +6.2 seconds

36: +6.8 seconds

37: +8.3 seconds

38: +10.0 seconds

Jacobs

35: 1500m PB

36: +0.7 seconds

37: +4.5 seconds

38: +0.7 seconds

39: -0.4 seconds (indoors, no less)

TLW wrote:

Systematic doping in the US meaning BALCO for example and the US sprint scene.

I define "systematic" in this case to mean the federation is facilitating it, meaning institutionalized, rather than a private group. I guess you could call it systematic any time a system is being employed, but when isn't it?

Jeff, the point is both athletes are running insane performances that are unheard of at their age.

TLW wrote:

Jeff, the point is both athletes are running insane performances that are unheard of at their age.

We're saying is that Lagat has clearly lost a step. He doesn't have the wheels he used to, while Jacobs was consistently within a second of her 1500m best in her late 30s, before breaking it at 39. Do you disagree?

Yes, he's running better at his age than anyone before him. But he's not breaking long standing personal bests. He's not as good as he's ever been.

He's been very fortunate to have a very minimal injury history up to this point (which takes a lot of people out) and a profile that's high enough that he can pick and choose his races as he pleases (and isn't dependent on prize money to put the roof over his head). Mark Kiptoo ran 12:53 at age 34, but he didn't have the luxury of relying on a comfortable endorsement deal to keep him covered if a race didn't fit his schedule.

Jeff, I see your points, I just disagree. Do you think Lagat was using EPO when it was undetectable?

TLW wrote:

Jeff, I see your points, I just disagree. Do you think Lagat was using EPO when it was undetectable?

No, I don't.

I'll add: what do you think about Eamonn Coghlan running 9 seconds off his indoor mile best at age 41?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

No, I don't.

I'll add: what do you think about Eamonn Coghlan running 9 seconds off his indoor mile best at age 41?

He ran 3:59. I think it's an amazing performance, but not otherworldly so it's clean.

When did Coghlan run his PR for the indoor mile?

TLW wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

No, I don't.

I'll add: what do you think about Eamonn Coghlan running 9 seconds off his indoor mile best at age 41?

He ran 3:59. I think it's an amazing performance, but not otherworldly so it's clean.

When did Coghlan run his PR for the indoor mile?

Coghlan ran 3:58.15 for the mile (indoors) at age 41. His lifetime best was 3:49.78, set 11 years earlier at age 30. Coghlan slowed 8.37 seconds in 11 years, while Lagat is already more than 9 seconds off his 1500m best at age 38.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

I'll add: what do you think about Eamonn Coghlan running 9 seconds off his indoor mile best at age 41?

Probably on the Guinness.

Jeff, there are so many things incorrect in your defense of Lagat that there is no way to begin correcting them (like Lagat not using EPO when it was undetectable, the date of the picture with gap in his teeth [go back further and see what you find], and the impact of his EPO use on the differential between his performances then and now).

I appreciate the sincerity and passion with which you defend him. I really do. But your naivete is actually frightening, and I think you could convince yourself of nearly anything. In the movie Now You See Me, there's a great line that goes, "the closer you look, the less you see." It's like looking at a Monet. Up close, all you see are the individual spots of paint. It's not until you stand back that those spots of paint form a picture.

I don't know why you seem to have so much personal investment in Lagat being the guy you think he is. Actually, I wonder that about a number of people who idolize their sports heroes. But whatever it is you're afraid of losing by understanding the truth about a guy like Lagat, it should never outweigh the truth.

X-Fit Douche wrote:

If he's over 40 and still doing this we will know something is certainly not right. Hell he was busted for doping back in '03

No, no he wasn't.

\/ FIXED \/

Zappy, there are so many things incorrect in your defense of American white boy runners that there is no way to begin correcting them (like white boys not using EPO or having TUEs).

I appreciate the sincerity and passion with which you defend them. I really do. But your naivete, ignorance, and supreme stupidity is actually frightening, and I think you could convince yourself of nearly anything. In the movie Now You See Me, there's a great line that goes, "the closer you look, the less you see." It's like looking at a a-hole in a mirror. Up close, all you see are the individual brown spots. It's not until you stand back that those spots that you form a picture of uranus.

I don't know why you seem to have so much personal investment in American white biy runners being the guys you think they are. Actually, I wonder that about a number of people who idolize their sports heroes, like me :-). But whatever it is you're afraid of losing by understanding the truth about white boy runner, it should never outweigh the truth.

TLW wrote:

He ran 3:59. I think it's an amazing performance, but not otherworldly so it's clean.

When did Coghlan run his PR for the indoor mile?

12:58 isn't otherworldly. It's an average elite 5k time. It's a lot worse than Lagat's 3:26 ability. If Lagat ran 12:3x, then maybe you'd have a point. People have split that in a 10k!

I don't understand how you're disagreeing with this. Clearly, Lagat has slowed down every year. And clearly, it's not impossible to run world class times in your 30s (marathon runners). The 5k can very much be a strength event just like the marathon. Think of all the guys that run the 5k that can't break 3:35 (Ritz).

How much does someone have to slow down every year in order to not be on drugs?

Zat0pek wrote:

I don't know why you seem to have so much personal investment in Lagat being the guy you think he is. Actually, I wonder that about a number of people who idolize their sports heroes. But whatever it is you're afraid of losing by understanding the truth about a guy like Lagat, it should never outweigh the truth.

Why do you have so much personal involvement in him being a doper? Maybe the people on the other side just don't like seeing a guy have his name dragged through the mud for no reason other than that he has had a long career at the top of the distance running game.