Ben Johnson SMOKED last leg of his relay tonight!

johnson ruined the sport, even at the end of the whole eastern bloc doping period, so no elegies for his career from here.

You talk a lot about Aries Merritt, but check out this photo and tell me who looks to have benefited from doping:

http://binaryapi.ap.org/3d14551aaeb0469ba6750d9f187b6ac3/512x.jpg

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Blake's missed-start WR-quality 19.26 was equally disgusting, as are Bolt's 9.69/9.58/19.19, MJ's 19.32, Merritt's 12.80. I am disgusted by those performances because I have the benefit of perspective. The best analogies are 9.69/19.19/19.32/12.80, but Blake is in there as well.

It seems that your admiration for Johnson has rendered you incapable of giving others the benefit of the doubt. That's too bad. Engendering such cynicism is probably the worst of the offenses perpetrated by dopers.

You may have a favorable impression of Johnson because of your personal connection to him. But I remember him as a glowering, irascible man with bloodshot eyes, the diametric opposite of Usain Bolt. And that was before Seoul.

Sprintgeezer, Did Charlie coach you? I was around there a few years earlier than you just before and during the time Ben got big. Almost all the Canadian Olympic team was there; Ben, Desai Williams, Mark McKoy, Angela Taylor, Tony Sharpe and a few others. I sat beside Charlie at a party once and he went through a book of Olympic Champions and matter of factly told me what each athlete was on and how he knew; Edwin Moses, Carl Lewis; everybody.

I never saw them do any drugs and had no idea. I was one of the few distance runners. I just figured they ran fast because they worked out 5-6 hours a day. I would go over at noon, do short jog, strides; they were there. Go for a run later after class, swing by the track; they were still working out. I totally agree with your assessment of the impact Ben and some of the other sprinters had. I hope he races some more too. Actually very nice guys as well. I remember sitting around on the high jump mats with Desai and Ben and they were telling me about how well they got treated in Japan. I was nowhere near their level but they pretty much treated everybody the same.

Sprintgeezer supporting a drugs cheat, showing his true colors. Just confirmed what a d**k he is. Also appears to feel it is ok to insult others religious icons so long as it is not his. Think I shall ignore his amateur postings in future.

baristo wrote:

Sprintgeezer supporting a drugs cheat, showing his true colors. Just confirmed what a d**k he is. Also appears to feel it is ok to insult others religious icons so long as it is not his. Think I shall ignore his amateur postings in future.

Hey guy, grow up or get lost.

"Comparing this doping cheat to Lord Buddha is sacrilege and offensive, even in jest."

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Not if you're not a Buddhist.

Fixed: Not if you're a Buddhist.

Um, yeah wrote:

* wrote:

I know. I was just trying to start a little controversy.

But it could get a little dicey allowing him on the track in the middle of an IAAF sanctioned meet.

How so? How different was his appearance in the Corporate relay than if he'd been allowed on the track to demonstrate his juggling between 'real' races? Or to hand out awards? Or sweep the long jump sand off the track?

If the event in question is not a formal sanctioned event as part of the meet, then the meet can have this banned cheat do pretty well anything without worrying about contaminating the rest of the competitors.

Because you never know what a federation is going to do with their power.

To play devil's advocate:

What if the relay were a bit more serious with pro runners and they just called it an unofficial event?

Or-What if they had an unofficial 100m with banned and non-banned runners and just called it a celebrity race?

They could pay these athletes and draw a crowd. The times wouldn't count for any IAAF list, record or qualifying.

So just call it unofficial and you can do it?

You can do that on the strip in Las Vegas.

You can even do that on a track reserved just for that event.

But you could not do that in the middle of an IAAF sanctioned track meet. Especially with that race listed on the schedule.

There was controversy about Mark Block, a banned agent, being in the press box at a track meet.

Here you have a banned athlete running on the track.

I don't care about this.

I am just pointing out that others, with power to impose penalties, may.

jjjjjjjj wrote:

johnson ruined the sport, even at the end of the whole eastern bloc doping period, so no elegies for his career from here.

Ruined the sport? oh, poor Americans, poor Russians, poor East Germans, poor Ma's Army, poor Eastern bloc athletes...they only drank milk and ate vegetables and fruits.

Standard Bearer wrote:

I sat beside Charlie at a party once and he went through a book of Olympic Champions and matter of factly told me what each athlete was on and how he knew; Edwin Moses, Carl Lewis; everybody.

Interesting. For sure he knew that because he went to the same suppliers. Or his suppliers knew about American's suppliers.

I don't know what to make of Gay. Because his form seems perfect except for his start, and because he focuses on athletics rather than on publicity, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

I consider Bolt's 9.75 adjusted from last year to have been one of the fastest-ever "clean" runs. Similarly, I think Gay's 9.69 (+2.0) is clean. 9.71 (+0.9) and 9.78 (-0.4) are equally impressive, if not more so, and I think are clean.

Cleanly, I think that he and Bolt are equal in the 100m. This makes some sense when you consider that they are the best in recorded history, and if you assume that the differences between athletes get smaller the more extreme the performance level.

What a great couple of years it could have been, to have seen Gay and Bolt battling it out, with victory see-sawing back and forth, depending on fitness, luck, injury, etc.

I would have to put Powell in there, as well, because of the excellent form that he as well has demonstrated. Compare the form of, say, an in-shape Gay, Powell, and Bolt to the form of greats from another era, the 9.8x-guys--say, Lewis, Bailey, etc. Some had visible room for improvement, while some like maybe Boldon and Fredericks showed pretty good form. I think I might put Fredericks in with this group, as well, or maybe just half a step behind.

Greene, Blake, Johnson, Mullings, etc.--forget about it.

jjjjjj--

Doping can, but does not necessarily, lead to great hypertrophy.

That photo can certainly be considered some evidence against doping, but it is only one piece of evidence in the bigger picture, which still points convincingly at doping.

"Bob Dobbs"--

Rubbish. As is clearly evident, I give guys the benefit of the doubt, even those who have gone faster than 9.79, when and only when they deserve it. Again, complete rubbish. Read the posts.

I'm still waiting for your response on the Kiryu thread, from which you have conveniently disappeared after proclaiming that it was culturally impossible for Japanese to dope.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5157304&page=8

I'm getting the feeling that notwithstanding your civil tone and respectable diction, you're just a troll.

You "remember" Ben? Really? From where? What did he drive at the time? What colour was his gym bag? I'm serious. I don't believe you for a second, what I believe is that you remember photos you have seen of him.

Yes, his eyes were bloodshot.

Glowering and irascible, absolutely not. Distrustful, yes, obviously with good reason, because he was hiding something.

Because you are demonstrably wrong about my giving others the benefit of the doubt, you are equally wrong about your assertion that dopers have engendered, in me, cynicism.

On the contrary, they have created awareness and the ability to look through the fog of publicity and hero-worship to dispassionately analyze the very real possibility of doping.

That is why I can point to specific performances that I consider to have been doped, or otherwise irregular.

You should try it sometime, but I suspect that it is easier for you just to post 2-line troll attempts.

For us to even begin to take you seriously, in that you can recognize your weaknesses and faults like a mature individual and discuss them accordingly, why don't you try answering the Kiryu thread before you do anything else.

Gay is far from clean. His training parter was Mullings and he works with john drummond. He goes from florida to dallas to houston and has his "therapists" follow him to every meet to make sure he doesnt blow up. Tyson Gays cleanest time was in JUCO championships. Even then he was getting smoked by Eric Wilson at Barton County. On the 4x100 meter relay everyone was talking about Tyson Gay then he got sucked up by Saidric Williams from South Plains on the 2nd leg. Saidric was the texas tech school record holder in the 100m. 10.27/10.11. He never trained and drank alcohol every week and smoked weed all day. I believe Tyson is a 10.2/20.3 baseline clean sprinter which is why he cant catch Usain Bolt the talent isnt there, Bolt runs 19.8/19.9 clean. Thats why afeter the 9.69 Gays body blew up just like Yohan Blakes is doing now. Extreme PED use and pushing WAY beyond your bodys limits

I received some coaching from him, but I wasn't a full-time part of that group in the later days. He was focused on sprints, I was a multi-aspiring guy at the time, training elsewhere but going to York to train once or twice a week, especially in the winter.

And yes, every time I went, they were there.

I was with them earlier, at Scarborough Optimist. Do you remember Mr. Masil? IIRC (I was very young when I first started), Charlie heard about my having won everything there was to win in Scarborough, took one look at me (scrawny little white kid), and made me do the 800m!!!!!!!!!!!

I even ran it in a couple of meets. I hated it, I never learned to run it properly. I did LJ, too, which turned out better.

Looking back, it's funny--I think there's a real possibility that the 800m would have been my best event as an adult.

Do you remember those great silk outfits they gave us back then? Silk shorts, blue IIRC, and a silk singlet, white with 2 blue stripes down the front, with a gold Optimist crest in the middle, IIRC. I loved that shxt.

Now I can't remember if the shorts were blue or red. I'm thinking that they were, in fact, red.

Maybe "Bob Dobbs" will know, lol.

spdyhou--

You may very well be correct. Your assessment would fit perfectly with my previous understanding of the 100m, but I have softened a bit over the years.

Who never trained and drank alcohol every week and smoked weed all day? If it was Saidric, then there is every reason to believe that Gay cleanly developed into a faster sprinter than this laggard. If it was Gay, then there is every reason to think that he would have improved significantly with the lifestyle changes he appears to have undergone.

I'm not saying you're wrong, in your ultimate conclusion. My primary position has always been that anybody who has ever gone 9.80 or below has been doped, and that would include Gay--but unlike Bolt 9.69/9.58 and Blake 19.26/9.69, my personal jury is still out on both Powell and Gay.

Here's what you said earlier in this thread:

"Had I had the benefit of any perspective, instead of having been so close to it all, I would have found it disgusting. You can win and even set a WR, but to win like that--egregiously--is disgusting, unless it is known at the time that everybody, and I mean everybody, is doing the same dope.

Blake's missed-start WR-quality 19.26 was equally disgusting, as are Bolt's 9.69/9.58/19.19, MJ's 19.32, Merritt's 12.80. I am disgusted by those performances because I have the benefit of perspective. The best analogies are 9.69/19.19/19.32/12.80, but Blake is in there as well."

If you're not accusing Blake, Bolt, and Merritt of doping, you need to learn how to express yourself more clearly. And if you are accusing them of doping, you're clearly not giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I had no idea I was supposed to respond to anything. I figured I'd already contributed enough to that thread and moved on. I've got a life. Besides, your relentless nonsense -- he's not really 17, not really 5'9'' -- was getting really tedious.

But now I see that you came up with an example of a Japanese being busted for doping. Good. That's what I had been asking for. But show me where I said it was "culturally impossible" for Japanese to dope. You can't, because I didn't. I didn't even imply it. You're being dishonest.

And the fact that you were able to find only one example of doping by a Japanese athlete just confirms that Japan's record on doping is exemplary. As I said before, the odds that Kiryu's a doper are very slim.

Yeah, I remember Ben Johnson. I interviewed him. Twice. And he was the most unpleasant athlete I ever interviewed. Why would I give a whit about his car or his gym bag?

I see. So you can just tell who's been naughty or nice, like Santa.

Right. Time for your meds, Mr. S.

Dobbs: "And if you are accusing them of doping, you're clearly not giving them the benefit of the doubt."

Ridiculous. If you had read the posts and understood them, you would understand this.

Dobbs: "But show me where I said it was "culturally impossible" for Japanese to dope. You can't, because I didn't. I didn't even imply it."

......."And no one can cite a single instance of a Japanese T&F athlete being busted for doping. Ever. In fact, I haven't heard of any Japanese athlete in any sport ever being busted for doping. I'm told that a Japanese pro soccer player was busted for PED use while playing in Europe, but I haven't bothered trying to confirm that.

Anyway, given Japan's spotless record, you'd have to be stark raving looney to bet that Kiryu is doping." (from previous thread)

You clearly implied it. You should think about your own posts before you go around calling other people dishonest.

Dobbs: "Yeah, I remember Ben Johnson. I interviewed him. Twice."

Wow, really Bob? From two structured interactions, in which type of interaction Ben was known to everybody to be uncomfortable, you think you understand enough about his character to label him "irascible"?

I overestimated you, and have probably wrongly continued to extend to you the benefit of courtesy. Your actual worth here is probably best revealed in your final comment: "Time for your meds, Mr. S."

Cool stuff - now I understand why you [still] do a bit of throwing. Two quick questions:

Did you know Donovan Bailey back in the day?

Decathletes such as Ashton Eaton are often of similar height and weight to elite javelin throwers but typically aren't very good at the jav - why?

pre841 wrote:

Standard Bearer wrote:

Ben is banned from any sanctioned races so we likely won't see him race other than exhibition type.

How/why did Ben get a lifetime ban when this current crop of drug busted yahoos get two-four years?

Done twice not that they stick to that rule

How is he running if banned?