Is Jim Ryuns mile the best ever? It was run on CINDERS!

Not aware anyone suggested his HS mile would equate to a 3:47. But his 3:51 certainly would for all the reasons already pointed out in this thread that I won't rehash again. ElG, just not sure about how clean his performances were. Maybe they were, but maybe not. And that's the question that will always remain in my mind.

SBFB wrote:Why 'clearly without the aid of performance enhancing drugs'?

Steroids were around and were legal then. No test for them until 70's.

His extremely inconsistent form could be result of peds.

nonsense

there was nothing "inconsistent" in his best years - '65 - '68 when he was virtually unbeatable

he became inconsistent after his well-documented mono illness in '68

or do you think drugs were reason he finished last in '68 800 trials in 2'02 when he was the 1'44wr holder ???

last i heard, drugs make you fast NOT slow

Sorry if that came out wrong, I meant that if we're suggesting that his 3:51 solo/cinder would equate to faster than a 3:43, then his 3:55 high school solo/cinder would then equate to at least a 3:47. The comparison was really meant just to put things into perspective: claiming that a time would be eight seconds faster in perfect conditions is just short of completely crazy when you get into the 3:40-3:50 range. At that point each second is a huge difference (heck, Guerrouj's 1500 WR is three seconds ahead of number ten all time!)

Disclaimer: I am assuming, until proven with at least some physical evidence, that these athletes are clean. Whether they are or aren't clean is a completely different subject, and I'd rather not get into it right now. Assuming he is clean, I would definitely say that Guerrouj is the greatest 1500 runner/miler of all time.

I once ran a 4:30 mile on cinders. So I usually say my PR is around 3:59

LOL.

You made no reference to "intrinsic" value in your original statement, Ventolin. And even that cannot be proved.

You stated as fact that Ryun ran the fastest last lap in a mile world record.

This is wrong. It doesn't matter what surface they ran on, Cram's 53.2 is a faster time than 53.7. That is a fact.

Agree with your points. I don't believe Ryun's 3:51 equates to a 3:43. While Ryun ran with disadvantages, they were not enough to equate to an 8 second difference. I would also agree that ElG is the greatest we've seen.

a rough estimate of ryun's shape can be garnered from the '67 race v keino

he walloped him in 3'33.1 v 3'37.2 - 4.1s win & keino wasn't giving up

look at his dip at the finish trying to shave every tenth off :

keino was in fantastic shape in '67 & ran 2nd fastest mile ever, a 3'53.1, likely solo & probably not great track in kisimu & to to all those fools who say he could only run fast at altitude

( even though he slaughtered the 3k wr at sea-level from 7'45 to 7'39, a time which left ron clarke in disbelief, & also broke the 5k wr at sea-level ),

kisimu is at 1,131m ( 3,711' ) which is barely in the altitude classification of the iaaf today of 1,000m

it woud barely be called an altitude run today

now he was in likely better shape in mexico ( given more time to train ) but he wasn't fresh lining up for that 1500, having run most of a 10k ( where he collapsed towards the end with acute cholecystitis ), coupla 5ks & at least a prelim 1500

the better '68 shape shoud probably be considered completely offset by running the 1500 there on tired legs, so i'd say he was in comparable shape to the rested 1500 in '67

a respected neurologist & physiologist, commenting soon after mexico, reckons he was in 3'30 shape there

( the author also knew a bit about quality mile running )

so, just a rough estimate ( albeit noakes rekons it's worth much more than 4s ) woud give keino, ~ 3'30+ shape in '67 & he got slaughtered by 4s by ryun there

that is giving a prelim estimate for ryun in '67 of

~ 3'26

( off some serious uneven pace ( jog of 1st lap in ~ 61.0 ), wide running 1st bend & brutal 95F heat & smog )

remember, caveat though that a more modern physiologist in noakes ( author of running science bible : "lore of running" ), give the altitude handicap as more than 4s

Galen Rupp Number on Fan wrote:

I once ran a 4:30 mile on cinders. So I usually say my PR is around 3:59

That's what this thread's all about. :)

Yeah!! Yeahh!! Real vento-nalysis!! Original RYUN base times!! DVTT(tm)!! Folks, it doesn't get any better than this here on LR. I love the traditions...

For real brah

Jim Ryun is, for some reason, the only olden days runner that anyone on Letsrun thinks is better than runners today. Why don't you think that Lasse Viren could beat Bekele and the like? What is different? He was more dominant than Ryun. Broke more records, had a longer, better career.....

How fast would Ryun have been on the same alleged doping regiment that El G was on? Or if they trained together?

How fast would Jesse Owens have been if he and Bolt were doing exactly the same "regiment" at the same time in history?

I think there are athletes every so often that are freaks of nature and just better physically, but in general human beings are NOT evolving so rapidly where people running today and genetically better than people born in the 1940's

Bolt might actually be an exception because of his size, but there's a lot of fishy stuff involved with his history

the day jim ryun dies, letsrun will be so devastated, it might just go home.

You do realize that JR ran 3:33.1/3:51.1 on cinders or dirt ..? Some experts have speculated that 1.5% is the amount of time lost from the old tracks to the new modern carpets. That would change Ryun’s times to 3:29.9/3:47.7... probably drug free. Possibly GOAT.

Jim Ryun was the fastest man on cinders, but who's the smartest man on cinders?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAST139RPCo

Knick Aïch wrote:

You do realize that JR ran 3:33.1/3:51.1 on cinders or dirt ..? Some experts have speculated that 1.5% is the amount of time lost from the old tracks to the new modern carpets. That would change Ryun’s times to 3:29.9/3:47.7... probably drug free. Possibly GOAT.

Or roughly equivalent to Coe. Minus the career.

Peter Smell ran 1:44.3 on grass and for me that is just unbelievable and blows Ryun out the water. Over 800m at least.

bellcheese wrote:

I think people are forgetting that Jim Ryun ran his mile ON CINDERS. Any time ran on cinders is superior to current times. IT WAS A CINDER TRACK PEOPLE. THAT MEANS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

I'm thinking that Ryan's world record on cinders was the last while world record on cinders.

SCROAT wrote:

Knick Aïch wrote:

You do realize that JR ran 3:33.1/3:51.1 on cinders or dirt ..? Some experts have speculated that 1.5% is the amount of time lost from the old tracks to the new modern carpets. That would change Ryun’s times to 3:29.9/3:47.7... probably drug free. Possibly GOAT.

Or roughly equivalent to Coe. Minus the career.

——

Sure ..10-15 years too early to take advantage of that late 1970s till 2000 era

bombardi wrote:

My HS had a cinder track. I run mid 4:20's on all-weather synthetic and cracking 4:30 on our track is equivalent. I run 53 in the open 400, 55 on our track.

Based on that, Ryun could have run 3:46 on an all-weather surface assuming the same race.

Yes, pure magic.

I remember walking into a gym class for the first time (Sept.1978), and

see the Track records board...and seeing a 4:05 mile, the school record,

then seeing the track. But yeah, Ryun's solo 3:58 is one of the top five

all time runs in my book.