Decker ran on slower tracks. It makes sense.
Decker ran on slower tracks. It makes sense.
crazy raisin wrote:
How preeminent we are and how soon we forget the past.
Webb's run for 4th, almost 3rd, behind El G and Lagat in 2001 was far, far better than Cain's run today.
And it turns out that Webb's time was the fastest of any American male that year. But remember Webb was a year older.
But really, I'm not sure that these types of comparisons are relevant - especially comparing times against existing world records. We all know that women's middle distance records are outliers.
In 2001 Webb entered the U.S. champsionships and finished 5th in the final, behind Downin, Lassiter, McMullen, and Jennings. But I would argue that the women's field in 2013 is much deeper than the men's field in 2001. There will be 2 WC medalists, a Diamond League winner, Mosier has run 4:02, Martinez ran low 1:58 and has been on fire. I think this will be the deepest 1500 U.S. field ever. I think Cain actually has a better shot in the 800, even though we have the extra slot in the 1500 - especially if Martinez runs the 1500.
I have been slow to warm up to Cain, but I think her performances speak for themselves. Also, she is much more tactically savvy than Mary Decker or Webb. If she makes the U.S. team she gets my vote as best high school runner ever. Plus she still has an entire year to achieve faster marks.
Jim Ryun - It is not even close. He was world class against anyone at that time when he was a senior in high school.
Not sure why Decker's names keeps coming up when discussing Mary Cain, remember, it was Kim Gallagher's 31 year old record that was just broken. In terms of the greatest, there a lot of ways you can look at it, but I personally think Mary Cain is America's greatest high school aged athlete. But, before Decker is used as a comparison again, remember this, Gallagher ran faster than Decker in EVERY event in H.S. Gallagher was also a regular high school athlete, she ran cross country, relays and multiple events at meets and she always won. Gallagher went 3 years with out losing to a high school athlete in an individual event and pretty much accomplished everything possible during her high school career. Gallagher's 800m record was the only time I recall her focusing on one event, running for time and having competition; she almost certainly could have run faster in other events under the same circumstances as her 800m record run.
Ryun is still the GOAT over all.
1966-1967 season:
NCAA Champion (indoor and outdoor)
World Record mile
World Record 1500
World Record 880y
Handed Gerry his only NCAA loss
Henry Rono is probably the only person in any event you could compare this to.
BUT--
Ryun beat the defending Olympic Champion (Snell) when he was 18, not 17. At Mary's age, Ryun made the 1964 US Olympic Team, got as far as the semis and did not make the finals. If Mary gets to the finals in Moscow...
sub3over40 wrote:
Jim Ryun - It is not even close. He was world class against anyone at that time when he was a senior in high school.
So Betty Robinson was a superior high school sprinter than Allyson Felix, because she won the Olympic 100m gold medal as a 17 year old high school student (in a WR equaling 12.0 seconds) while Felix could only manage to make the semi-finals of the world championships at 200m during her senior year?
coach d wrote:
Ryun is still the GOAT over all.
1966-1967 season:
NCAA Champion (indoor and outdoor)
World Record mile
World Record 1500
World Record 880y
Handed Gerry his only NCAA loss
Henry Rono is probably the only person in any event you could compare this to.
We were discussing high school accomplishments and these were achieved while Ryun was in college.
Ryun making the Olympic team while in high school was huge, as was running 3:55 and defeating Snell. But I think 4:40 and 1:59 for a high school junior are just as remarkable. And I think Cain making the U.S. team in 1500 will be a bigger accomplishment than Ryun making the team in '64 because the level of competition is so deep.
I meant 4:04 not 4:40.
sub3over40 wrote:
Jim Ryun - It is not even close. He was world class against anyone at that time when he was a senior in high school.
Sorry. I can't get behind this sort of logic. Ryun was special, no doubt. And it's certainly true that he was more competitive on the world scene than the likes of more recent high school phenoms such as Hasay, Cain, Webb, Fernandez, etc.
However, track was a different sport back then. With the beginning of the "professional" era, came much greater competition the world over, including the mighty African contingent. Today, someone like Mary Cain has to compete with runners who do nothing but run for a living. When she runs against international competition, she has to compete against hungry African runners who are their to feed their families. She has to run against athletes who are doped to the gills. It's a different world we live in. So if a high schooler is even competitive enough to be running against the pros at a meet like the Pre Classic, that's something really special.
TrackCoach wrote:
Not sure why Decker's names keeps coming up when discussing Mary Cain, remember, it was Kim Gallagher's 31 year old record that was just broken. In terms of the greatest, there a lot of ways you can look at it, but I personally think Mary Cain is America's greatest high school aged athlete. But, before Decker is used as a comparison again, remember this, Gallagher ran faster than Decker in EVERY event in H.S. Gallagher was also a regular high school athlete, she ran cross country, relays and multiple events at meets and she always won. Gallagher went 3 years with out losing to a high school athlete in an individual event and pretty much accomplished everything possible during her high school career. Gallagher's 800m record was the only time I recall her focusing on one event, running for time and having competition; she almost certainly could have run faster in other events under the same circumstances as her 800m record run.
Decker was beating international competition, including the Russians, at the age of 14. Had she not been hampered by shin problems beginning @ age 16, I'm certain she would have lowered her teenaged personal bests.
And the winner is wrote:
TrackCoach wrote:Not sure why Decker's names keeps coming up when discussing Mary Cain, remember, it was Kim Gallagher's 31 year old record that was just broken. In terms of the greatest, there a lot of ways you can look at it, but I personally think Mary Cain is America's greatest high school aged athlete. But, before Decker is used as a comparison again, remember this, Gallagher ran faster than Decker in EVERY event in H.S. Gallagher was also a regular high school athlete, she ran cross country, relays and multiple events at meets and she always won. Gallagher went 3 years with out losing to a high school athlete in an individual event and pretty much accomplished everything possible during her high school career. Gallagher's 800m record was the only time I recall her focusing on one event, running for time and having competition; she almost certainly could have run faster in other events under the same circumstances as her 800m record run.
Decker was beating international competition, including the Russians, at the age of 14. Had she not been hampered by shin problems beginning @ age 16, I'm certain she would have lowered her teenaged personal bests.
Gallagher was about 6 yars behind Decker. There were better tracks, shoes, training methoods for Gallagher. But for 2:00.07 record to last that long is great.
It was in the early days of women running but Decker did set WR at 15,16.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_DeckerYou may be correct if your statement was more like she is the greatest high school aged female distance runner that never competes in high school races or for a high school for that matter. And she is professionally coached. Cudos to her being fast.
Great article on 15 year-old running protege Mary Decker.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1088482/
"Mary Decker is either the enfant terrible or the coming star of women's track—or both. The tiny 15-year-old set indoor world records at 800 meters and 880 and 1,000 yards last winter and won the 800 meters handily at the U.S.S.R. indoor meet in Moscow. But later on in the Russian meet, running the anchor leg of a relay race, she was passed by a Soviet opponent who cut in too sharply and elbowed her. Upset, Mary angrily threw her baton at the Soviet girl and later broke into hysterical tears.
Now, apparently serene again, Mary seems ready to break two minutes in the half mile, which would be as impressive in its way as Jim Ryun's first sub-four-minute mile back in 1964, when he was a 17-year-old high school student. Only nine women have gone under two minutes for 800 meters, all of them tough, seasoned Europeans, ranging in age from 22 to 31.
Mary's best time for 800 meters outdoors is 2:02.4, but her indoor record of 2:02.4 for 880 yards is the equivalent of 2:01.5 for the slightly shorter metric distance. She is getting close, but some observers say she is getting there too fast. Steve Prefontaine, with whom Mary has been corresponding about her training and her goals, says, "Her future could go up in smoke if she's pushed too hard. I couldn't believe her training schedule. She could become so sick of running that she'll want to retire at 18."
....
I believe different bodies (and minds) have different optimal speeds at which they operate.
Some require slow growth - they thrive in that environment. On the other spectrum, we have bodies that thrive in a fast-paced, intense space.
It's just like when you see a kid in school who learns faster than all the other kids. But he has to sit there and occupy his mind with something else because his mind craves the intense level of brain stimulation so to keep himself busy he builds something that shoots his bologna sandwich into Sally's hair.
Agree. I think Decker was better for now. Cain by virtue of non injury prone-ness has better times and may still exceed anything Decker might have been able to do.
You love reading my stuff :D
1070 wrote:I think Cain making the U.S. team in 1500 will be a bigger accomplishment than Ryun making the team in '64 because the level of competition is so deep.
I understand your point, but you're forgetting that Ryun's Olympic USA squad was the best USA squad maybe ever. The other two guys that made the Olympic team with him were #2 in the World Dyrol Burleson and Indoor Mile World Record Holder Tom O'Hara. He made the team literally by inches, running 3:39.0 on a torn up dirt track in New Jersey on a hot day. He ran the equivalent of a 3:56.0 full mile after only 2 years in the sport!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWyISKM_Mkyesstiles wrote:
I understand your point, but you're forgetting that Ryun's Olympic USA squad was the best USA squad maybe ever. The other two guys that made the Olympic team with him were #2 in the World Dyrol Burleson and Indoor Mile World Record Holder Tom O'Hara. He made the team literally by inches, running 3:39.0 on a torn up dirt track in New Jersey on a hot day. He ran the equivalent of a 3:56.0 full mile after only 2 years in the sport!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWyISKM_Mk
Here's the problem. No matter what their standings in the world were, they will NEVER be able to call themselves the best USA squad ever.
I see a lot of posters here constantly bashing Triathlons and Swimming for being sports that lack depth of competition.
Track and Field back in the 1960s was just that. Runners could NOT make money running, because doing so violated the sanctions of international competition. Every runner had to work a real job on the side, and it's because the US was such an economic powerhouse at the time that it even allowed for its runners to develop.
Take a look at what happened once professional running came onto the scene. LEGIONS of Africans took over in a span of several years. These were guys who never had the chance to compete because they were too damn busy trying to make ends meet in their daily lives.
There's plenty of people on this board who say that Phelps doesn't qualify as the greatest Olympian because his victories were achieved in a sport that doesn't offer enough competition.
That was Ryun back in the 1960s.
Not a Coach wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:Zola Budd ran faster than the world record at age 17. Cain will probably end up like her, almost winning elite races for a couple years, then regressing to modest performances or retiring. That's what usually happens with teen phenoms.
Zola Budd was a shy girl who had never competed outside South Africa until shortly before the 1984 Olympics.
She was granted British citizenship earlier in 1984, among huge controversy, following a campaign by the Daily Mail, she was granted British citizenship, which normally took years for a South Africa.
This broke international rules but she was eventually allowed to compete.
This led to public demonstrations against her in the UK, all in all taking a huge emotional toll on a shy young girl.
The Decker controversy and being booed in the Olympic final didn't help her emotional state but the following year she broke the 5,000 meters World Record.
She then returned to South Africa following threats by Anti-Apartheid campaigners to physically attack her on the track.
She was subsequently BANNED for 3 years from international competition, at the age of 22, for competing in South Africa.
She started racing in South Africa in 1991, having an excellent season, running the second fastest 5000m in the world that year.
She competed in the 3000 m at the 1992 Summer Olympics in Barcelona, but did not qualify for the final.
A year later finished fourth at the World Cross Country championships.
Unfortunately she could never repeat that form on the track.
She resumed competition in 2009, winning a half-marathon in Myrtle Beach in 1:20:41 and a 12K in South Carolina.
She competed in the 2012 50 Mile Comrades Marathon, running 08:06:09.
Comparisons Mary Cain'situation are ridiculous.
Thank you. It is great to see someone who actually did their research, unlike most of the clowns on here who just spout off half-facts.
While I would admit that Mary Cain is a phenomenal talent, I don't think she has ever run a 1600 or a 3200 meter race against HS talent and run faster than Jordan Hasay. That says something about Jordan and it says something about Mary.