Sage Canaday blows up so badly in 100k that he has to walk downhills, still wins over Western States Record Holder

Looks like Canaday fits your model pretty well. He should be able to clean up once he decides to run a 100 miler. Please let us know who you are to lend some legitimacy to the argument.

Ptothec wrote:

In regards to the Kenyans running ultras, Noakes has done some research and theorizes that their thin frames may not be suited to the longer distances. This was based off of years of study at the Comrades which is one place Africans do run ultra distance but do not dominate like they do in the marathon

That would be interesting if it proves to be true, but even so, that just means Ethiopians would dominate.

Don't be impressed by knowledge of his time, thank the internet. Heard of it? Also, I heard that from a girl who ran that year who said that in the early stages of the race staff had told her that the course was a bit short.

I do not know if the course still has this discrepancy but I assume not as it is a bronze label event now

Flagpole wrote:

I wouldn't call Olson's comment "stupid". It was perhaps a bit of sour grapes, but he does have a point. Perhaps they would destroy Olson at Western States, but just as a half marathon is perhaps a bit far for Lagat, it's fair to at least wonder if 100 miles is a bit far for a marathoner. Not EVERY 2:16 marathoner would be successful at 100 miles, so you can't just assume that. That said, probably at least half of all 2:16 marathoners could train for and do really well at a hilly 100 mile trail run like Western States.

If Sage had lost the race and said after the race if this had been a marathon it would be "different" what would you call that? None of the road runners who have transferred successfully to ultras have said anything disrespectful about moving up in dstance, they have always been respectful. That's the key thing, no has ever shot their mouth off about coming in and just dominating or assumed anything. You would think that kind of respect and hard work would get respect in kind. Used to be there was always great camaraderie ultrarunners almost always trip over themselves congratulating the winner, its a bit disconcerting to get this more us against them attitude now.

30 pounds from race weight wrote:

Any news on World Class Race walking?

This guy WAS a 2:16 marathoner that knew he could never get much better running in events that the competitive runners care about so he went to the "who cares?" events. There are roughly 75 Americans that are currently competing in real events that would kill Sage in an Ultra without even training for it.

typical dumba$$ response from a washed up has been trying to make himself feel better about retiring after college after achieving maybe a third of his potential, and times that were fast enough to make him act arrogant toward the mass of his competitors. your screen name says it all, fatty.

Sage was top 50 in the olympic trials marathon. a 2:16 marathoner already moving up to overdistance could not be "killed" or even narrowly beaten by 75 americans in an Ultra. funny how the "who cares" events, as you call them, are always the toughest and the most trying: ultramarathoning, trail races, mountain races, etc. the champions in these fields are people who do not quit, period. that's a hell of a lot more inspiring than someone who was born with good enough genetics to turn around a 10k that would impress a shallow $hitbrain like you.

After reading the interview quote a second time I'm not sure there was any disrespect and more like he wished he had some more distance for this race and would just be interested to see how well King and Canaday would do at the 100 mile distance. Everything up to that point is "dude kicked my ass."

"Yes, well, I don’t know… I don’t want him to spank me too much. It’s inspiring to watch athletes like that just giving their all. He’s a talented dude. It’s fun to watch ultrarunning growing and watch the younger guys (I’m young, too, but younger…) get into it. And these fast guys—I don’t have that road background that some of them do like Max King and Sage who are dominating races up to 100k. I’d love to see them try 100 miles. Things change as the miles click off. If I had a few more today, it would have been interesting. It was a good day."

You guys are ridiculous, of course Kenyans could dominate ultra running. In this link there are 6 virtually unknown runners who probably ran this on a whim and fared 7 min pace or faster on a 50 mile course... scroll down to 75 km. Now, if they trained properly for a longer distance they could easily attack 60 and 100 miles with ease. As some people mentioned, nutrition and navigation or the most daunting aspect for the majority of fast runners transitioning into the 10 hr+ events.

http://www.amazingmaasaiultra.org/page/2012-race-results

Also, need to point out Western States is a downhill course.

As most of you know, with extended road-run training, one can get their VDOT to translate across a 5k, 10k and half-marathon. But there is a bigger challenge when trying to extend that VDOT out to the marathon distance; besides the increased musculature endurance required, the metabolic energy systems come into play in a significant way.

Now when one tries to extend their VDOT out from a road marathon to a road (or track, or other flattish) 50 miler (or 100k distance), the VDOT extension again becomes a much bigger task, because of the metabolic issues, in addition to the difficulty in increasing the musculature/structural endurance. We would still think that a 2:20 marathoner would lose to a 2:12 marathoner over a flat 100k, but it is not at all assured because of the metabolic and endurance factors, even though VO2max and economy/efficiency would still be the predominant factors governing performance.

However, moving the race over to the trail changes things considerably, as now the economy/efficiency of the runner can be greatly affected. Depending upon the technicality of the trail, choppy stride mechanics, jumping plyo steps, and trail technique factor into the 'normal' economy/efficiency road-running mechanics. Large and steep elevation changes greatly impact 'normal' economy/efficiency as well.

Consequently, when competing over a technical 100k trail ultra, there is no sound reason to think a 2:12 marathoner would readily demonstrate superior performance to that of a 2:20 marathoner.

"Horses for Courses"!

I agree that road racers are generally better runners than trail or ultra runners.

But a lot of what these guys are doing these days isn't simply a one-to-one comparison of running abilities. For better or worse, a staggeringly wide range of activities gets lumped under "ultra running", and an even wider range of stuff gets lumped into "running".

For example, take this video with Jornet and Krupicka on the Grand Teton in Wyoming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Z1-smRsoU

This is a 13,800' mountain that due to its technical nature most climb over at least two days. These guys cruise up and down it in 3hrs, free-soloing a technical climbing route in the process.

That kind of outing is so far removed from, say, what Sage did at the Tarawera 100K that it's pretty pointless to even begin to try to compare the two. Other than to say that both are impressive exploits and that both involved running.

All three are impressive athletes, though Sage is clearly the most talented and accomplished "pure" runner. I doubt either Krupicka or Jornet would argue that. But they're not even playing the same game. It is vaguely like comparing a flat 3000m time to a 3000m steeplechase time. Pointless.

Yeah, because Bruce Fordyce doesn't have a thin frame. Get a clue, Fordyce is/was a twig, a white Kenyan at that, and he did pretty damn well at Comrades. A athlete like Geb would absolutely annihilate the WR and then open the gateway to the rest of the Africans, as he has done over 5000m, 10,000m, Half Marathon, and Marathon.

Good post.

Interestingly, Krupicka pulled out of Tarewara. Maybe wanting not to defer to Canaday's strength on that type of course, particularly coming back from injury, factored a little bit into that?

Tim Olson's comment actually makes sense. Canaday had blown up and limped to the finish of a 100k. If the race was 37 miles longer Canaday would have DNFd or Olson would have run him down.

Sage is pretty fast wrote:

[quote]

On another note, Timothy Olson made a pretty stupid comment afterwards about how he would "love to see" Max King and Sage try 100 milers, because while they can dominate up to 100k, "things change" over 100 miles. I'm guessing that if either of them went for Western States next year and actually focused on it, they could make Timothy's record look pretty slow. The fact that Sage has dominated his last 2 races (both 100k) after experimenting around with this ultra stuff for only a year indicates that the big 100s are his as soon as he wants them. A little trail training and a lot of slow long runs is really all it takes for a 2:16 guy to crush everyone else at these distances.

OR, Sage would have got a 2nd wind and destroyed him by 1-2hrs+ and Olson may have DNF'd. As a guy that has beat Olson on the trails, my money would be on Sage for 100 mi.

I agree with you. I said he had a point, and he does, but that doesn't mean he isn't showing some disrespect. He would have been better off not saying that.

Bring on those 2:20 marathoners at Steamboat, please, show up, show us how "fast" you are. :-) It's only 100 miles right? Or, is it too far so you damage those 29 minute 10k legs?

In regards to most 50's and 100's that are more "technical" There are not 50 or 100s that are technical where any runners run sub 9's. Apparently a pothole in the pavement is technical to you?

All 100s under 17 hours are hardly technical. And elevation wise, even Western States is non-technical, the reason for the fast times. I'd love to see mr. 215 roadie go to Western with a blown gasket at Robinson Flat cuz he went out a too fast. Perhaps go to the Zane Grey 50. If Mr. fast 10k guy can run 3 miles on that trail at 7 per mile, I'd be highly surprised. I dont' think road runners know what technical means, other than a few rocks and a few hills.

Go suck your exhaust, stick to the pavement. :-)

cuz' I don't want to run a 10k, it's boring and on a road.

1. wow, there are a lot of ignorant a-holes on this, which I guess is not surprising in a gene pool that is challenged the best of times.

2. obviously half the people here have never got to the start line of an ultra and suffered through 100 miles. Ultra's are not just about speed fro christ sakes, it incorporates mental challenges you don't experience in shorter distances, and stomach, and muscle, and and and and and

3. I would agree, ultra's historically have not had the world's fastest runners as measured in 10 km or even marathons. There is no money in the sport. As more money enters, the speed will evolve and the drugs will probably come too... it's not rocket science.

4. to say that those who have run in ultra's are not real runners or less of a runner than a track runner or marathoner, you are probably young, naive, ignorant AND just don't really understand.

5. Thank f that ultra's are not filled with the wankers commenting on this or i would have bailed on the sport a long time ago.

6. I am now old, fat and just muddle my way through running ultras so don't tell me I'm slow as an insult, I already know that.

and Karl that was not to your posting, it was to all the ones here who have no idea