just sayin wrote:
Jono
i too believe steve cram was clean but your statement that wr's can be broken clean by a big margin is silly
which wr's?
they can't!
cram as you prob know was a big el g fan
i wonder if he still is today with the benefit of hindsight?
i doubt it!
Ya... single out Cram as somehow clean... LOL
I want the facts wrote:
This is an important topic. I want to expose any and all dopers...
There is nothing for you to expose. It's right in front of you; they exposed themselves by winning in an era when products were being used that enhanced oxygen processing capabilities by upwards of 10%. Stop being an idiot.
Yes, El G was massively enhanced. So what?! That was the game at the time, and all the top athletes knew how the game was being played. They weren't children being forced to do drugs, so don't get your panties in a knot.
Now the game has changed slightly. Now the most elite of the elite athletes must wear "I hate dopers" shirts and hats, while trying to find a connection to a lab that can synthesize undetectable ESA's, PPAR modulators, oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve shifters, etc. You can't get rid of science from sport/life, it's just stupid to even try.
exactly
does anyone seriously believe a clean el g showed a clean pair of heels to a host of dopers during the epo boom
it didn't happen
rekrunner wrote:
Of all those names, I only saw one reason to suspect Aouita (his alleged actions in Australia).
It's equally credible that the rest are clean.
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:With all due respect, I must say that I question your objectivity since you seem like the biggest Seb Coe fan I know on this site. It's understandable that it's probably because he's a Brittish athlete. I do enjoy reading your track stories from the 80s but I'm just pointing out that your favorism for Coe might blind you a bit.
I personally don't think there is any proof that Coe is any different than El Guerrouj or Wilson Kipketer in terms of talent and running close to their best. So what makes anyone think Coe running high 1:41 800m is any more credible than Kipketer running a bit faster 17 years later or Rudisha running about a second faster than Coe about 30 years later. Excuse my laziness for not getting the exact numbers and times but I'm close enough; the point is that one can't question Aouita or Kipketer or El Guerrouj or Morceli or Lagat and somehow blindly believe that Coe never used any PED whether it's steroids or blood doping.
His actions are not ALLEGED. They are well documented. The guy was run out of the country. All of his times/places are discounted as drugged by anyone knowledgeable in the sport. He is a non-entity.
that was a 3:35 race (with a 53 3rd lap) but a) el g gets to rest doing the track kiss and b) he runs off with the flag to get a bit of the recovery that Peter Coe always recommended for Seb Coe after a race: you need a few wind sprints right after the race and you use the victory lap to get them in. See Coe's Winning Running.
aussie? wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Of all those names, I only saw one reason to suspect Aouita (his alleged actions in Australia).
It's equally credible that the rest are clean.
His actions are not ALLEGED. They are well documented. The guy was run out of the country. All of his times/places are discounted as drugged by anyone knowledgeable in the sport. He is a non-entity.
I don't disagree with you at all, I made a mistake including Aouita with the others since I think he made it obvious that he was a cheat with the incident as a coach in Australia. I should also take Lagat off that list too since he tested for positive for Sample A which I doubt was a mistake or error in testing of the sample.
I agree. 100 years from now people will laugh at how ridiculous our current training beliefs are.
jono wrote:
I think all of the World Records can be broken by quite a big margin without drugs for the simple reason that athletes can and will improve their technique, which is the only real area of development for speed endurance.
The problem is that you need so much speculation in so many areas to connect the dots. You need many things to go your way, in order for any conclusions to be valid, but the fact is that several things could go either way.Funny you bring up Lance. Around 2008, I did think that everyone was jealous of his success, in large part because I didn't do any research and I didn't have any facts (much like you now with your baseless suspicions of El Guerrouj). But once I read an interview with Michael Ashenden regarding the re-testing of the remaining TDF 1999 samples, Lance was irreparably guilty. The UCI hired an "independent" lawyer to make the problem go away, but Lance escaped conviction on the merits with legal technicalities. I was non-gullible enough then to see the difference.When we speak of Lance, of course we could have suspected him based simply on fast times, and an unprecedented domination in a grueling sport. But stopping there would be mindless, requiring little thought. You seem to require that from me, but I also require that from you. In Lance's case, there was plenty of corroboration supporting these suspicions. We had many classes of people calling him guilty: fellow (peer) riders in the peloton; former US champion Greg Lemond; wife of teammate, Betsy Andreu; team soigneuse Emma O'Reilly ; former team mechanic Mike Anderson; many former teammates, etc. There was no shortage of persons with some inside knowledge all contributing to the same story.With El Guerrouj, we have fast times, and we have his nationality (guilt by association). As I said, these are reasons to form suspicions, but standing alone, they are very weak. It is precisely because I am not gullible, that I don't believe you, based only on these weak associations.These fellow Morrocans are not "teammates" the way that Lance had teammates on US Postal, or Discovery, or Radio Shack.I will think about it when you give me something to think about. Fast times -- someone has to be the fastest. Guilty by nationality -- give me a break. Am I guilty because Lance cheated? Give me a stronger link to these "teammates".
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:
You appear confident with your posts on this subject, with your "I won't believe it till I see a positive test". You my friend are the same fool that probably defended Lance Armstrong and probably bashed his teammates that came out against him as jealous a-holes. Don't be so gullible.
If you have a guy with teammates that are getting caught doping left and right, and one teammate has "rabbited" your most important races, how can you not suspect that the leader in the group? Do you really believe El Guerrouj did not know his teammates were doping, that he was shocked to find out Adil Kouch used illegal PED?????? Are you that gullible?
Think about it.
Maybe they are well documented, but you didn't give me any reference, and I didn't see one in this thread.But in spite of your emphasis, "alleged" is not the most important word. We seem to agree that Aouita was worthy of suspicion. My point was regarding all the other names.
aussie? wrote:
His actions are not ALLEGED. They are well documented. The guy was run out of the country. All of his times/places are discounted as drugged by anyone knowledgeable in the sport. He is a non-entity.
You doubt it was a mistake, because you seem to have the gullible tendency to draw conclusions without knowing facts, or ignoring known facts.His "B" sample tested negative. Do you think that was an error in testing of the B sample? How do reconcile that with your doubt that a mistake or error in testing of the "A" sample did not occur?In Lagat's case, it was well documented that the "A" sample was left in high temperatures for a long amount of time. This gives us a reason to doubt the "A" sample testing result, despite a perfect test of the sample. We don't have any reason to doubt the "B" sample result. Now we know that exposure to high temperatures for an extended period of time can cause a kind of degradation of natural EPO, so that it looks unnatural.Lagat's long history at the top is a clear sign that he is clean, and always has been.You just need to think things through a little bit.
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:
... I should also take Lagat off that list too since he tested for positive for Sample A which I doubt was a mistake or error in testing of the sample.
rekrunner wrote:
You doubt it was a mistake, because you seem to have the gullible tendency to draw conclusions without knowing facts, or ignoring known facts.
His "B" sample tested negative. Do you think that was an error in testing of the B sample? How do reconcile that with your doubt that a mistake or error in testing of the "A" sample did not occur?
In Lagat's case, it was well documented that the "A" sample was left in high temperatures for a long amount of time. This gives us a reason to doubt the "A" sample testing result, despite a perfect test of the sample. We don't have any reason to doubt the "B" sample result. Now we know that exposure to high temperatures for an extended period of time can cause a kind of degradation of natural EPO, so that it looks unnatural.
Lagat's long history at the top is a clear sign that he is clean, and always has been.
You just need to think things through a little bit.
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:... I should also take Lagat off that list too since he tested for positive for Sample A which I doubt was a mistake or error in testing of the sample.
I get what you're saying and I'm glad you admit that I was right about assuming you were one of those individuals who accused Lance's teammates of jealousy when they came out accusing him of doping. I should add that it wasn't your gullibility but your instistence to not wonder about what is going on with these athletes unless there is hard evidence which is obviously unrealistic since the only proof one is guilty of doping is evidence of positive results. It's almost as if you don't leave room for the possibility that there are runners that are passing these tests by means discussed in this thread.
I don't get why people say it doesn't matter that El G was doping or not because that was the 'EPO Era' and everbody was doing it. GREAT. If El G was the beneficiary of the most comprehensive 'EPO Era' science project, his results should be invalidated. If he was doped, he and anybody else who test positive through retroactive testing should have their titles and money stripped. Do you know how much El G made from Diamond League victories, from incentivized performances and appearances? There WERE people competing clean in the Epo Era and they DESERVE to get the accolades/recognition/$$ that others cheated them out of.
If we truly care about cleaning this sport, we need to use all the technology we have to tear down the epic frauds of our sport and rebuild a clean foundation. Don't even get me started on the Women's WRs. Those women had excessive arm pit hair and rigid, manly faces, and bulky bodies for a reason--they were juiced!!
Kyzer
I don't understand what you get out of trolling. Can you explain it to me? I mean I could sort of understand a brief comment here or there. But you've started many threads and made many comments. It's like that is ALL that you've done with your life today. Do you really find this to be a worthwhile thing to do? How old are you? What do you do for a living?
too good to be true wrote:
This man was a science project. Morocco took their most talented runner, pumped him full, put him through incredible training, and protected him at all costs.
It's disturbing really.
No proof whatsoever. I, for one, will give him the benefit of the doubt until evidence appears. Maybe he was just that good.
ksks wrote:
Kyzer
I don't understand what you get out of trolling. Can you explain it to me? I mean I could sort of understand a brief comment here or there. But you've started many threads and made many comments. It's like that is ALL that you've done with your life today. Do you really find this to be a worthwhile thing to do? How old are you? What do you do for a living?
Mom's basement for now.
The top 25 times for the 1500m occurred from 1995-2004.
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_1500ok.htm
Hicham has 14 of them. Lagat 4.
Can't we just accept that Hicham is the best, drugs or no drugs?
ksks wrote:
Kyzer
I don't understand what you get out of trolling. Can you explain it to me? I mean I could sort of understand a brief comment here or there. But you've started many threads and made many comments. It's like that is ALL that you've done with your life today. Do you really find this to be a worthwhile thing to do? How old are you? What do you do for a living?
I'm old enough to do your sister which is what I do for a living. POW! Seriously, don't let me get you down, your post makes me feel sorry for you for letting a stranger get you all concerned.
Sincerely,
Kyzer
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:
ksks wrote:Kyzer
I don't understand what you get out of trolling. Can you explain it to me? I mean I could sort of understand a brief comment here or there. But you've started many threads and made many comments. It's like that is ALL that you've done with your life today. Do you really find this to be a worthwhile thing to do? How old are you? What do you do for a living?
I'm old enough to do your sister which is what I do for a living. POW! Seriously, don't let me get you down, your post makes me feel sorry for you for letting a stranger get you all concerned.
Sincerely,
Kyzer
Mom said to turn the tv down Kyzer.
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:
Ya... single out Cram as somehow clean... LOL
Ok, how about this KS, why don't YOU tell us who the real clean athletes are???
Your blankets accusations of: guy A, B, C thru Z are all guilty because of the era and their fast times, therefore, every OTHER guy in history who ran about as fast as them must be a cheater too is just simply dumb.
Face it: we don't know who cheated and who didn't. Some people El G I can see a stronger case being made for. Guys like Geb and Bekele I doubt it.
Putting aside Ventolin's extreme calculations, Jim Ryun at age 19 was running, with more modest conversions, (on today's tracks, with rabbits, etc) some times not too far off what the best of the 90's ran. So was he doped?
Was Peter Snell, running 1:44 on a grass track (1:42 on today's tracks) a million years ago a doped time?
So again, since you seem to know, why don't you just give us the official "THESE GUYS WERE CLEAN" WR's. Can't wait, should be entertaining.
Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:
Kyzer Sozenator wrote:Ya... single out Cram as somehow clean... LOL
Ok, how about this KS, why don't YOU tell us who the real clean athletes are???
Your blankets accusations of: guy A, B, C thru Z are all guilty because of the era and their fast times, therefore, every OTHER guy in history who ran about as fast as them must be a cheater too is just simply dumb.
Face it: we don't know who cheated and who didn't. Some people El G I can see a stronger case being made for. Guys like Geb and Bekele I doubt it.
Putting aside Ventolin's extreme calculations, Jim Ryun at age 19 was running, with more modest conversions, (on today's tracks, with rabbits, etc) some times not too far off what the best of the 90's ran. So was he doped?
Was Peter Snell, running 1:44 on a grass track (1:42 on today's tracks) a million years ago a doped time?
So again, since you seem to know, why don't you just give us the official "THESE GUYS WERE CLEAN" WR's. Can't wait, should be entertaining.
Lol, I understand what you are saying and you seem to agree that there can be a case made for El Guerrouj doping, hence this thread.