Thank you!
end of discussion
Thank you!
end of discussion
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Very few east Africans are as talented as Rupp or Hall. The talent is there in the US, just doing something else.
How do explain the fact that it's just a handful of tribes that produce the vast majority of the top East African distance runners? They're virtually all Kalenjin, Masai, Oromo or Tigray.
pr100 wrote:
Interesting that so much of this analysis focusses on performances by men. No women has yet to come anywhere close to Paula's marathon WR...
It's particularly interesting because Canova specifically says that Shobukhova (a "caucasian") is virtually unbeatable if she's in Chicago '11 shape. The continued relevance of non-African women in distance events troubles arguments that would like to reduce athletic ability to region-specific genetic traits.
Many people on these boards, including the Brojos, are fixated on genetics. The seemingly contradictory evidence of women distance runners (Paula, Liliya) is either ignored or explained away in strange ways (I've read the hypothesis that women are more likely to benefit from PEDS).
African women still dominate, though. You must also know how few African women actually participate in running. Can you imagine how few Ethiopian/Kenya women get a good opportunity to try, relative to everyone else. They still dominate.
What does that have to do with anything? I said in prior posts that the east africans are clearly more talented on average. That doesn't mean in a country the size of the US (plus Europe, if we're talking about caucasions) that there are not extremely talented genetic outliers.
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
What does that have to do with anything? I said in prior posts that the east africans are clearly more talented on average. That doesn't mean in a country the size of the US (plus Europe, if we're talking about caucasions) that there are not extremely talented genetic outliers.
But what IS this mysterious "talent" that people keep writing about, and where does it come from? The truth is, we really don't know the proportion of American versus east African people who attempt running. Moreover, it is uncommon among American children (and probably many African children in urban areas) to run long distances on a regular basis--especially while living and developing (physiologically) at high altitude. There's just too much going on to attribute the current dominance of east Africans to race or genetics. What we may be witnessing is a lightening in a bottle phenomenon, whereby people who happen to have bodies good for distance running (compact and light) also live in a region where running is a cherished sport (and a potential way out of poverty, much like basketball in America), and where the physical environment stimulates the body to make more red blood cells. The fact that all of these things are happening at once to developing bodies over a long span of time makes it difficult, if not impossible, to parse out the contribution of genetics to running "talent."
I agree with Renato and the general peanut gallery in that the answer to the OP is 'Yes'1500. However, it would not take much for the race picture to change (and it will one day). The fashion now is big bucks for road race winners and records. What if records get rarer and Joe six-pack moves on from hobby-jogging? The public would lose interest, big funding would dry up and most Africans would disappear. I can see the threads now....." Renato Canova: why are EAfricans no good now - did they all get fat?"
Dorando wrote:
I agree with Renato and the general peanut gallery in that the answer to the OP is 'Yes'1500. However, it would not take much for the race picture to change (and it will one day). The fashion now is big bucks for road race winners and records. What if records get rarer and Joe six-pack moves on from hobby-jogging? The public would lose interest, big funding would dry up and most Africans would disappear. I can see the threads now....." Renato Canova: why are EAfricans no good now - did they all get fat?"
What I meant was 'Yes'1500.
Whoa its not posting right! Yes up to 1500 No over 1500.
Dorando wrote:
Whoa its not posting right! Yes up to 1500 No over 1500.
And if we want to win medals, this is where we should be placing our development emphasis--more emphasis on the speed necessary to kick with the Africans in MD, less emphasis on high mileage/cross country.
There needs to be a place for people who simply don't have the physical talent to run 48 or faster...but winning medals isn't likely part of the picture.
As I said before, concentrate on your strength, which seems to be exactly what most long distance people aren't doing.
coach d wrote:
Dorando wrote:Whoa its not posting right! Yes up to 1500 No over 1500.
And if we want to win medals, this is where we should be placing our development emphasis--more emphasis on the speed necessary to kick with the Africans in MD, less emphasis on high mileage/cross country.
There needs to be a place for people who simply don't have the physical talent to run 48 or faster...but winning medals isn't likely part of the picture.
As I said before, concentrate on your strength, which seems to be exactly what most long distance people aren't doing.
You certainly have the exact opposite approach to me.
Canova's analysis is simple yet superb...and points out the absurbity of wondering if racial types like Coe, Ovett and Cram or even El G can compete at middle distance.
Renato Canova wrote:
I don't want to divide people in Caucasian and rest of the World. Simply, we can speak about African of the highlands (Kenyans, Ethiopian, Eritreans, Ugandans, Tanzanians) and other athletes in the World.
So, I can see African of COMESA (Central and East Africa) and other runners.
At first, you can see, looking at the all-time lists, how many Central African there are, compared with other runners (Maroccan and Algerian at first : I consider them as white), for events :
800m
Top 10 : 6 (African) - 4 (white)
Top 20 : 16 - 4
Top 30 : 22 - 8
1500m
10 : 5 - 5
20 : 10 - 10
30 : 17 - 13
5000m
10 : 8 - 2
20 : 14 - 6
30 : 23 - 7
10000m
10 : 9 - 1
20 : 18 - 2
30 : 27 - 3
Steeple :
10 : 9 - 1
20 : 15 - 5
30 : 25 - 5
Marathon
10 : 10 - 0
20 : 19 - 1
30 : 26 - 4
How it's possible to see, longer is the race, greater is the dominance of Central / Eastern Africans.
This can teach us two things :
1) In the long distances the Aerobic Level is fundamental, and it's not possible to replace it with any other type of training (exercises, fast intervals, etc..). Since the first effect of training in altitude is to increase the Aerobic Power, athletes living in altitude have clear advantages compared with athletes living at sea level.
2) In short distances, the effect of altitude is not very important, and in any case we can have some advantage during the fundamental period only, not during the specific period. The top runners of 1500/Mile, for example, used very fast tests with very short recovery, in order to stress their lactic system (English type of training used by Coe, Ovett, Cram, Peter Elliot), and this is a type of training normally dangerous in altitude, for the lack of oxygen that can't allow athletes to recover quickly lactic tests very fast. Also the athletes of Maghreb (Aouita, Morceli, El Guerrouj, Ramzi) used the same type of training, different from what Kenyans use to do.
3) Using a high speed, athletes need to have more muscular consistancy, in order to develop speed. European, American, North African athletes have a structure more powerful (under muscular side) than the average of Central and Eastern Africans. Of course, there are ecceptions, like Masai (Rudisha, Billy and Patrick Konchellah, Gregory Konchellah alias Yusuf Kamel), but percentually white runners are more talented for high speed than Kenyans.
4) Therefore, there are no indications that in 800/1500m white runners can't be as competitive as Central African runners. We can have Olympic Champions as Borzakovskiy (Russia) or Rodhal (Norway) or Schumann (Germany) and World Champions like Bucher (Switzerland), and in 1500m athletes like El Guerrouj, Morceli, Cram, Coe, Ovett and a lot of other athletes from Spain (Cacho, Diaz, Abascal, Gonzalez, Eastevez), Portugal (Rui Silva), France (Baala), Germany (Wessinghage, Hudak), Italy (Di Napoli), Switzerland (Deleze) and others.
5) Instead, it's really difficult to think that white runners can be totally competitive in long distances.
However, the current Galen Rupp, or Portugueses of the past (Mamede, Lopes) or the top Italians (Antibo, Cova, Mei, Panetta) or Baumann (Germany) could be competitive for a medal still today. The problem is another : while in 800m white runners are able to continue to run fast like in the past, in 1500m not so much but in any case near the past, in long distances we are very far from the performances of the past. So, the fact is we are no more able to produce top runners because we are no more able to recruit the most talented runners. So, it's useless to speak about "theory" when the real problem is the social difference between Western Countries and that part of Africa still interested in running.
The dominance of African is due to their talent, but also to the fact white athletes disappeared. And the solution is not to look at Africa too much, but to look at our young generation, creating again interest in running and organising a different type of life.
The almost feminine skeletal structure required to be a great male distance runner is as rare in the US as the body structure of an NBA center.
And you won't see many east Africans in the World's Strongest Man Competitions.
Exactly - Northern Europeans win the throws, whites win the swims, Asians win sports where reaction time and flexibility count (gymnastics, badminton), West Africans win the fast twitch runs and power/weight ratio sports, East Africans the distance runs.
Genetics, genetics, genetics...
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
What does that have to do with anything? I said in prior posts that the east africans are clearly more talented on average. That doesn't mean in a country the size of the US (plus Europe, if we're talking about caucasions) that there are not extremely talented genetic outliers.
Because it's not "East Africans" that are talented. It's basically four tribes that supply the vast majority of the world's top distance runners.
Keep in mind that the whole rest of the world outside of Africa is dealing with a fraction of the original human gene pool. Bjorn Borg and Toshihiko Seko are closer genetically than two Africans of different linguistic groups.
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but following on the weight idea:
Here in Turlock, in one block of our main commercial artery, there is a Taco Bell, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Carl's Junior, Round Table Pizza, AND a Jack in the Box. 5 year olds in the USA have been found to be developing occlusion in the coronary arteries. This is the culture in which we grow up. How many potential athletes here in the states never have a chance to develop because they have been raised on fast food? When I was running in college, we lived by the mantra, "If you train hard enough, it doesn't matter what you eat (or how much you drink)" and I know that many on these boards have shared the same sentiment.
I do not mean to imply that eating crap food is worse than malnutrition, but in many ways, lots of kids growing up in the states are UNDERnourished AND OVERfed.
I think that almost everyone on this board agrees that there are a host of reasons why the E. Africans are so much better in the long distances now:
Born at altitude
Financial Incentive
Culture that celebrates runners
Genetics (bio energetics)
Genetics (body type)
Harder training from a younger age....
Rank 'em
How does that change the overall point? The point is that there is a huge amount of genetic variation within a given population and that if the population is large enough, there will be extremely talented individuals within that population. Obviously there is no way to test whether the idea that we could actually be better than the East Africans if there was widespread participation. It seems pretty clear that the talent is there in the 1500, given the prior success of Coe, Ovett, Cram, ect. The marathon is more questionable but I would not say impossible. In between, it is pretty hard to say but my guess is that we would do pretty well.
Renato always gets to the point and knows what he's talking about.
However, he only focuses in men athletes.
I'D LIKE TO KNOW RENATO'S OPINION ABOUT WOMEN DISTANCE RUNNERS.
Unlike in the men's side we still can see European or American female distance runners winning at the world championships or beating the East Africans (Zaripova, Shobukhova).
it is true African culture only allows a few women the practise of sport.
Notwithstanding if we compare female-male performances in Europe we obtain amazing results:
Russian female track athletes can almost beat their men counterparts from the 400m to the marathon. The only competitive Russian men is still Borzakovskiy, while the women
are still a powerhouse in every distance event.
I know what some people is going to answer about it but Russia is not the only case.
Germany had Schildhauer,Kunze,Baumann and others. Now they only have
(female) Irina Mikitenko.
Portugal has no valid heir of Lopes or Mamede but has a nice bunch of competitive women: Jessica Augusto, Dulce Felix, Marisa Barros, Ines Monteiro, Sara Moreira. Maybe they are not comparable to Fernanda Ribeiro or Rosa Mota, but they are still very good.
British case is the most evident of all. No man middle distance runner can face the world elite right now and only Mo Farah can really do it in long distance. yet Farah is born in Somalia and his breakthrough came after moving for training to the USA.
Talking about women. We have Jenny Meadows, Hannah England, Marilyn Okoro, Jemma Simpson...I guess I'm forgetting some others.
Then the promising Aldershot girls: Charlotte Purdue,Emma Pallant, Emelia Gorecka,Steph Twell... All of them with a brigh future. By the way no Aldershot man has followed in the steps of these talented girls.
Obviously there is not only Paula Radcliffe in the country.
If still somebody wants to argue cultural barriers for Kenyan and Ehiopian women athletes is the reason:
at a recent domestic competition (the European Cross Country champs in Velenje) British women dominated overwhelmingly every one of the three races, followed by the Portuguese (who had not all of their most known stars). British and Portuguese men performances were just average.
Are the sociological factors affecting more European men than European women?
spirit of wonder wrote:
British case is the most evident of all. No man middle distance runner can face the world elite right now and only Mo Farah can really do it in long distance. yet Farah is born in Somalia and his breakthrough came after moving for training to the USA.
Talking about women. We have Jenny Meadows, Hannah England, Marilyn Okoro, Jemma Simpson...I guess I'm forgetting some others.
Then the promising Aldershot girls: Charlotte Purdue,Emma Pallant, Emelia Gorecka,Steph Twell... All of them with a brigh future. By the way no Aldershot man has followed in the steps of these talented girls.
Obviously there is not only Paula Radcliffe in the country.
If still somebody wants to argue cultural barriers for Kenyan and Ehiopian women athletes is the reason:
at a recent domestic competition (the European Cross Country champs in Velenje) British women dominated overwhelmingly every one of the three races, followed by the Portuguese (who had not all of their most known stars). British and Portuguese men performances were just average.
Are the sociological factors affecting more European men than European women?
Regards relative success of British Men middle/long distance runners compared to British Women middle/long distance runners .....
A lot of it is down to attitude ....
Lots of British men middle/long distance runners prefer to spend their time on forums like these "discussing" trivia
The women on the other hand are out there training, & training more intensively!
Once again, Renato, you have a remarkable ability to raise the level of the conversation.