Phil Hersh - Bashing Hall (Again)

the smartests letsrunner wrote:

This is a sign of the sport moving from fanboy newsletters to major media - we should be celebrating. Hersh works for the Chicago Tribune, not Flotrack or the Mammoth Lakes Running Shop Newsletter. His JOB is to find the limited rivalries and personalities on display in our sport and report on them. Hall and Keflezighi are the two best marathoners in the US, bar none. They run very different styles - Hall may post faster times, but so far Meb has a better record of putting himself in the race. An aging 2:09 guy going out in at 2:06-pace? Sick! When Hall goes through the half on a hilly course in 1:01 and change, let me know.

??? Hersh isn't sitting at his desk calculating how to create a rivalry in running and how to promote the sport. He was still stewing weeks after the fact that Hall dismissed his questions. The only rivalry Hersh created is between Hersch and Hall, not Meb and Hall.

It's ironic that Meb got his Olympic medal by following the strategy Hesch criticizes in Hall, that is, he ran his own race and let most of those racing with the lead group blow up and come back to him.

This discussion points out perfectly one of the weakest things about LRC--the inexplicable esteem displayed by the editors of LRC towards Phil Hersh.

As many have pointed out, Hersh isn't nuanced enough as writer to base his articles on fact (ie: Hall's AR vs. Keflezighi's PR) Hersh's primary concern is filling space and meeting deadlines. He offers no original insight into athletics (probably because he was never an athlete himself) Instead, he trades in conflict as entertainment. His articles are intentionally disconnected from reality, they're designed to induce annoyance or anger in those who know better.

And its not just Hall that Hersh does this to. Not long ago, he wrote a piece on Michael Phelps that suggested Phelps had insulted the swimmer Ryan Lochte, after Lochte had defeated Phelps in a race. Hersh set up a byzantine narrative that twisted Phelp's post race explanation for his loss into an insult against Lochte, even though Lochte and Phelps have been great friends for years.

It's fundamentally unjust when a writer with no authentic connection to sport is allowed to distort and misrepresent it as a career strategy. That LRC offers Hersh additonal exposure is pathetic.

stuck with match.com wrote:

I thought the article was well written and he hits on a lot of great points. The fan boys on here love Hall and love to hype him up. The fact is he was only 47th fastest marathoner this year, his Boston time doesn't count because it was downhill and wind aided. 47th! You would think on this site that he is top 5 the way people hype him up. He was yet to be relevant on an international scale, no OG or WC medals, podiums in a major marathon.

Hello, Phil!

He posts on here as ttc. I wonder if he will show up and defend himself.

stuck with match.com wrote:

LP!! wrote:

Hall went out in 1:01 and change at Boston.

Boston doesn't count, the first half is significantly downhill and it was wind aided. 1:01 and change is equal to 1:03/1:04 under normal course and conditions.

That´s irrelevant, Phil. Hall was was with the top guys. For a large part of the race, he was in the lead.

Well yeah technically he isn't wrong. Hall is not Meb. Meb is not hall. Now what is the big deal again?

Hall meb

2:08:04 2:09:13 (with vomit break)

2:04:58 2009 NYC champ

2:08:40 Athens marathon silver medalist

2:06:17

2:09:02(Oly trials champ)

2:08:24

inconsistencies - I'll say! wrote:

joho wrote:

I'm pretty sure Coach Canova thought they were pretty legit. I think he has some sense when it comes to the marathon.

Nope. One should make the distinction between what one actually thinks and what one states for public consumption.

If Coach Canova truly believed that those times were legit then he would have to think that if they ran the race in reverse (as another thread suggested) under those same conditions (wind against them) then they would get the same results. Clearly only the severely mentally disadvantaged and those under the age of 6 could possibly believe this. I'm pretty sure that Coach Canova does not qualify on either count.

So you think that running a net uphill course into the wind would net the same results? Interesting logic there Einstein. Saying the times were legit doesn't mean they would run the exact same times under different conditions. It means that Mutai is a bad ass and is capable of REALLY fast times as was proved in NY. If Matai had run 2:06 or slower in NY then your arguement would be valid.

I will take Canova's word over yours any day.

Well yeah technically he isn't wrong. Hall is not Meb. Meb is not hall. Now what is the big deal again?

Hall

2:08:04

2:04:58

2:08:40

2:06:17

2:09:02(Oly trials champ)

2:08:24

meb

2:09:13 (with vomit break)

2009 NYC champ

Athens marathon silver medalist

But for the record, this Phil guy sounds like a prick.

thinker wrote:

...I will take Canova's word over yours any day.

That's because you are not very bright.

hfgdsa wrote:

Hall > Meb's results wrote:

Mebs results come from when nobody else runs well, shows up, and/or crazy men jump out and assault the leader of the race. Ryan Hall actually runs fast against fast people in fast races.

So it's just luck on Mebs part? Lets see besides the Olympic silver medal in 2004 and the NYC win in 2009 he also has podium finishes at Boston in 2006 and New York in 2004 and 2005. That's not luck dude. Hall is certainly a very gifted athlete but he has one podium finish in a major marathon. He's a lot younger than Meb of course so he has time to figure it out and I hope he does.

Yes, nothing but dumb luck, getting anything with a 2:09 PR is just sheer luck with mediocre ability, even back in inferior 2004, 2006, etc. Like claiming greatness for being hit with lightning twice when your achievement is simply being out in the weather to be hit. And calling New York a "major" to begin with is being highly generous.

Phil does present a strong ego and entitlement in his writing. I think there is an element of distaste for Ryan Hall's image and presentation with Phil. I would assume as someone who likes to "go worldwide" to find the [low hangning fruit] undiscovered stories, he would have a tough time writing about a standard American, whose overhyping from fans/media hasn't matched up with Phil's eggshell expectations.

A lot of people don't like what Hall stands for or talks about, but he's just responding to interviews and being himself. To me, he's never come off as overbearing to people, but obviously he enrages guys like Phil, since he says more than your standard marathoner's mutterings about training, "hoping I do well," etc etc.

Primarily because he is a HUGE ASS-Hole, with a mouth and a pen to go along with it...

What's dumb about Hersh trying to whip up some sort of rivalry is that Hall and Meb are friends. For those who like to bash Hall because of his religious views, Meb is just as religious, as his book Run to Overcome makes clear, but Meb is just a more soft-spoken kind of guy than Hall. Any kind of real rivalry is just manufactured.

Yeah my whole thought is Phil Hersh is just a bitter, lonely man. If you listen to his comments on flotrack, the dude just sounds like a cynical F*%@er. I mean the guy probably goes home, looks in the mirror, shouts "Why god, why me?" and then proceeds to cry himself to sleep while listening to enya. Yeah so I don't like the guy to say the least.

Hersh is guilty of being untactful, but he does have a point. Hall (or any American) is not going to close the gap on the Kenyans by being satisfied with a time performance and being best American. The latter is what led to the decade-long decline in American running in the '90s -- satisfaction with being best American and shoe companies buying in by paying them for that. Hersh's frustration is palpable with Hall because he has the talent to at least contend but chooses to run (not race) for time, letting go of the leaders well before any serious moves are made. The problem with Hall is he is very comfortable being Hall -- he's white, pretty, marketable, best American and performs at a certain level time-wise, although by his own criteria (time) his performance at Boston isn't any better than Meb's at New York given the courses. With the armor of his religion (and sponsors) there's absolutely no reason for Hall to change. Someone would have to challenge Hall for best American to seriously light a fire under his ass.

Why does everyone think Hall is satisfied with where he's at? He even talks (in the same press conference that Hersh bashed him at) about what he's going to change and work on moving forward to improve. The dude is working to improve, changing things up, trying to figure out what works best for him. Obviously, he was OK with Chicago due to it being his 3rd fastest time, on NOT his best day, in conditions that likely affected him MORE than others (due to his larger body mass). That doesn't mean he's not trying to improve upon it guys. Look at Boston. I don't give a crap WHAT the times were, he was out there, pushing the pace, in the thick of things for 20+ miles. Sure he fell back a bit at the end, but he still ran a very competitive race. In Chicago, he tried something different with different training, and looks like it didn't quite pay off, but hey- he's out there trying working to improve.

If you can't see the merits of journalists and sports writers you are not too sharp.GOOD sports writers can be very beneficial to athletes and teams. They often get to the heart of matters, promote great exposure to this shittily marketed sport, and for the most part, sports writers who cover running and outdoors sports are good people. Without sports writers Letsrun's front page would be nullified. I can't say the same for the "mainstream" sports writers, NFL, NHL, Major League baseball, NBA and so on. With their over-sized personalities, they tend to get caught up in a less pure form of journalism.It is this mold from which Phil Hersh emanates.

Ryan Hall is okish wrote:

The guy is a sports writer, I can not think of a more worthless profession. Guy gets paid to write about others working and achieving great things while he sits on his *** and does nothing? The only thing he ever accomplishes is watching a good race or a good game, wow, congrats to this guy!!! At least a garbage man performs a service to society. What a total joke, maybe Hersch should accomplish just a little bit of something on his own before he goes out and rips one of the country's best marathoners. And this coming from a non Ryan Hall fan.

OnTheBubble wrote:

Hall and Meb are two of the greatest marathoners that we have to contend for anything. If you want to label me as a fanboy because I think our greatest chances of medaling or contending on an international stage are these two guys on ANY GIVEN DAY. Then by all means do.

First of all, I agree with you 100% that these guys are head and shoulders about the rest, and I am a big follower of each for different reasons. I don't think that makes either of us fanboys, but I do think if we want to see this sport in the mainstream we have to get used to the same treatment the mainstream media gives basketball/football/baseball stars every single day. If a basketball reporter said "LeBron James, you're no Kobe Bryant" (or whatever), there might be some deabte on the assertion, but nobody in their right mind would say a reporter has no right to state that opinion. The idea that our stars should be coddled is what I think is fanboyish.

You make many good points about Hersh not having spent time competing or coaching at an elite level, which makes it hard to swallow some of his comments. But I'm glad you agree with me that it's nice that someone in the mainstream media *even cares at all* about this. I told my wife (non-runner who patiently listens to me on the lastest marathon news week after week) about this little feud, and she said 'at least people are even talking about these guys - usually you complain nobody covers them.'

I say good on Hersh for caring and writing about who runs their a 2:06 going 1:03/1:03 and who runs a 2:09 going 1:03/1:06. Because I assure you, he's pretty close to the only writer in the business who gives a damn, and it's nice to see this stuff in the popular press.