Do you belive the 1770 sub 4 minute mile?

caveat emptor wrote:

That doesn't vitiate the fact that performances correlate across two variables. I merely added that in as a factoid for all you kiddies out there. And here is another. Ben Franklin took it upon himself to place mile markers on the Post Road between Boston and New York. This was in the 1760s. He devised a mechanical odometer for his wagon and set off to drive a stake at each mile. Guess what? The few stone markers that remain are exactly a mile apart. Just because it happened long ago doesn't mean there weren't smart people around. And in case you doubt me...see

http://www.samnet.net/esso/Fmm.htm

That doesn't mean that someone underwent systematic training that is necessary for any human (with the right physiology) to run a mile so fast.

The story is bs. Just like the stories about Indian tribesmen from the American Southwest clocking sub 4's in the 1800's.

Okay, fine...don't commit to yes or no. To all those posters that believe, believe these things too: aliens live among us, Ted William's son is a genius & Gu will be available at Oly Marathon feed stations.

This story is total nonsense. Yes, there were pedestrians running in the 1770s, and, yes, they had decent ability. By "decent ability," I mean something on the order of 4:25-4:30. Timing was relatively casual then, and most of the races of this period were run on roads--often downhill, with a tailwind, etc.

Is sub-4 in the 1770s remotely believable? NO.[/quote]

If it was run downhill? Yes sir![/quote]

But--if it was run downhill, it is not comparable IN ANY WAY to what we call a "mile"--that is 1760 yards on a flat oval track. How fast could someone "run" a vertical mile if dropped out of a plane? Who cares? If we're actually comparing apples-to-apples here, a sub-4 mile in the 1770s is NOT remotely believable.

scotth,

I said no. As for the pejoritives, it shows little class. You don't know who you're directing them at, and if you did you would be more than slightly embarrassed. That's indisputable!

Believe the terminology is, 'I call bullshit on that.' What you said no to was a flat mile. You left yourself an out by saying it was possible for someone from 1770 to run a downhill mile and left results from such a recent race as some kind of evidence. In effect, your answer was wishy-washy.I did find your comments about malmo both naive and ignorant. If you feel degraded as a result...you're mighty thin-skinned.

retsinnab wrote:

As for the pejoritives, it shows little class. You don't know who you're directing them at, and if you did you would be more than slightly embarrassed. That's indisputable!

...if I knew who you were, I'd be more than slightly embarrassed? Those whose opinions I value wouldn't say the things you have here. I'll stand by my comments regardless of your identity.

Sounds to me like you're the person with the thin skin. I'm curious how you react relative to a serious issue?

As for malmo, just gave him back a bit of what he so liberally dished out himself. He's got pretty thick skin, however.

Friend, send me a 'love note' too. Good enough for malmo, good enough for me. Thanks in advance.

retsinnab wrote:

As for malmo, just gave him back a bit of what he so liberally dished out himself. He's got pretty thick skin, however.

what's potable water malmo? can it improve my performance at downhill miling?

JonnyO wrote:

what's potable water malmo? can it improve my performance at downhill miling?

It's what edjikated folks drinks. Iff U hafta axe U kant have nun.

retsinnab wrote:

As for malmo, just gave him back a bit of what he so liberally dished out himself. He's got pretty thick skin, however.

Wrong, my skin is quite thin - but made of a Kevlar-like carbon fiber extrusion.

Oh, BTW, just for you retsinnab, I've finished my rebuttal article:

It comes as no surprise that as the 50th anniversary of Roger Bannister's historic four-minute mile approaches, an assortment of carneys, hucksters and fringe "historians" are coming out of sworn secrecy to announce they actually surpassed the milestone decades, and in some case, centuries ago. Among them: Jim Jones, L Ron Hubbard, Squeaky Fromme, Ann Heche, Ira Einhorn and Marshall Applewhite -- all coming out of seclusion from a secret encampment in Roswell, New Mexico.

As recently reported by the BBC, two enterprising old coots, Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, showed how they first measured perfect 400 meter track "circles" in a wheat field near Hampshire England, using only a stick, a piece of rope, and a flashlight to guide them, then completed four full "circles" on the course at night under the moonlight. The time: three minutes and fifty eights seconds - set back in 1947! They admitted, however, that if it weren't for the monetary inducements from the tabloids they'd have never accomplished the feat themselves.

Hoisting a pint for the cameras, and with a twinkle in his eyes, Chorley proclaimed, "Elizabethan amateur rules in the 1800s almost killed the sport of sub-four miling." Experts from fringe publications such as Runner's World concur, citing "prize structures and fan adulation in the 1700s would turn David Beckham green with envy."

Of the hundreds who've come forward so far this year, it still remains a mystery how or why these people have kept their secrets over the years? Some say this psychological phenomenon is a close cousin to the "Helsinki Syndrome." Other experts are suggesting that the hoopla of the 50th anniversary of Bannisters "supposed" record has caused suppressed memories to be released from bondage.

"Sanitariums are suffering with a caseload overflow of four minute milers," says Jonathan Altered of Newswhack. "Between you and me," McMurphy admitted, "she might have been fifteen, but when you get that little red beaver right up there in front of you, I don't think it's crazy at all, and I don't think you do either. No man alive could resist that, and that's why I ran the mile to begin with."

Raelian Starfleet Commander Brooks Johnson pleaded to be interviewed for this article--we politely declined, deferring to the wishes of his doctors. Recently released therapy transcripts have Johnson mumbling incoherently, "Flying 100s (space ships), time travel, kill whitey!"

Scientists have found no physiological barriers to prevent 18th century athletes from such performances. "I know of no reason why hard working farmers and cultists could not run under four minutes centuries ago," said world renown researcher Jim Beam.

Many other scientists support Beam's conclusion. Peter Smails, himself an Olympic Champion, a judge and an avid golfer said recently, "Farmers and laborers in the 1700s worked very hard and were very fit. Even today, this work ethic still prevails, and the small farms in Western Kansas produce dozens of four minute milers every year." The pig races at many Midwestern State Fairs often showcase 12 year olds in dungarees dipping under the magic barrier.

When asked what happens to the few farmers who fail and don't break four minutes, Smails chortled, "Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too."

scotth,

I like you. Love? Not enough data.

Seriously, we're in agreement on the idea of the improbability of a LEGIT sub4 mile in 1770. I'm willing to leave it at that. I suppose we should be rejoicing today in what we KNOW to be a historical fact. Kudos to RB.

Thanks, malmo.

You wouldn't believe how well your post read as I levitated. I'll copy it and take it with me to tonight's depravation tank session.

Friend, you said you sent malmo something. I looked and can't find anything substantial on this forum so assumed you sent him an email, ie. a 'love note'.

Speaking of potable water...who'd a thunk bottled water would become enormously popular as it has?

I doubt anyone ran sub 4 in 1770. However I do have one comment. In theory great track surfaces, shoes, nutrition, modern scientific information on way's to train for specific events and so on should make a major difference.

Funny thing though. With the exception of a few select athletes in various events times should be across the board faster then they ever were. They are not and American running is at all time worst. Just check out results if you can find them from the 1970s thru mid 1980's.

I m not a big advocate of road racing as I love the track. However I noticed a 5 miler won in 32 minutes in my local area. That same race use to be won in 25 and change only 10 - 15 years ago.

Today's college meets at Division 2 and 3 after you take a few top runners off the top are times that use to win Jr High track meets. Like do we even have standards today. Or do we let anyone go out for a sport and be politically correct. Must be the liberal thing today in college. Let Sussie and Johnny run no matter what their ability is. We have cut's in team sports how about holding track to a higher standard. It might actually improve American running.

Ask me all this great technology, shoes - tracks and what not are not making one big a difference in this generation.

Doubt it. Maybe the first sub 5:00 mile.

Actually, first recorded sub 5:00 mile is about 60 years before Bannister. George, a professional miler, hit 4:18 in the early days of the 20th century. WWII hurt the game for four minutes as Haag hit c.4:02 in the early 40s.

Santee tried, but to no avail.

Landy hit 3:57 about 46 days after Bannister broke it.

Amazing that Snell hit only 3:55 in '60 or so, you'd think the record would have been driven down more. Jazy hits 3:53 circa 1965. Ryun runs 3:51 in '67.

Walker breaks 3:50 in about 79.

3:43 record run several years ago.

Webb as high schooler runs 3:53 in the past few years.

V. Cartier runs 4:05 indoor as highschooler in 1972. Breaks Ryan's HS record. Holds for 20 years.

(I ran againt Cartier. He was a machine.)

The problem is that the mile has lost its chachet in the US/UK in the past 20 years. Less attention to the classic distance these days.

Webb is the best US hope. He's still in college. Let's see what he does.

That 3:43 is tough. 4x53 seconds is trouble to top.

My best is 4:36. Run in 1978.

moose

... it was in the eighteenth century that men, the mile bd the watch first came together, and the guesses became ganbles as to how fast the distance might really be run. It was a time when the sporting culture of Britain was increasingly dominstaed by heavy gambling. It grew from a fashionable pastime - centred around horse racing and prize fighting - to an obsessional activity among many of the aristocracy.

Men with vast estates, and fortunes to match, would weager huge sums of money on the outcome of a race or fight. They would trek between town and country houses, their coachs accmopanied by footmen whose duties included running ahead of the family coach to make arrangements for food, drink or rooms at wayside inns, and racing to alert country-house staff that their guests were soon to follow.

With the gambling culture ablaze, it became almost inevitable that aristocrats bean tp back their footmen, one against another in races, sometimes with thousands of pounds riding on their speed and stamina. Competition between footmen gradually gave way to the idea of one man racing against the clock over long distances. Men could win huge sums walking or dunning dozens of even hundreds of miles within a given time.

But while many performances may have been suspect, some were conducted under the most rigorous of rules and scrutiny. the very act of setting up a wager ensured that checks were put in place to stop gamblers being cheated of their money. Both stakeholders and referees had to be satisfied that the terms of any wager could be met. times and distances had to be carefully measured and the athlete monitored throughout their performance. Specialist watchmakers provided properly regulated and checked timepieces that had already been in use for decades in horse-racing. It was quite common to set up contests between men on measured coach roads or on race-courses, and many took place between milestones.

The great landmark of challenge of the edestrian era involved covering one thousand miles in one thousand hours, the catch being that you were only allowed to run one mile in any given hour. This meant activity round the clock, twenty four hours a day, for almost six weeks. rather like the build-up tp the four-minute mile a century and a half later, there was much speculation as to whether the human body could survive such a test.

When Captain Robert Barclay Allardyce attempted it on Newmarket Heath in 1809, crowds of many thousands flocked to see for themselves whether the barrier could be broken. Barclay did it, losing four stones (56lbs) in the process - and becoming an instant national hero. A fortnight later he was off fighting in the Napoleonic ars, but his performance, and the tough training methods that made it possible, had a profound and lasting influence on the sport of athletics. His training, supervised by a tough old Yorkshire farme, Jackey Smith, set the standard for decades.