Questions about Summer of Malmo

I'm going to work up to 5 doubles a week, but then when my cross country season begins to start in late August, I've heard I should not completely stop doubling. Is that true? With school it will be harder to double for me, I can probably manage 2 times a week.

So, when I hit my peak of 5 doubles a week in late July and hold that for a few weeks, should I then reduce the doubles by week so that by the time school and xc season starts for me I am just at 1-2 doubles a week and have progressed down from 5 slowly?

malmo wrote:

In need of endurance wrote:

1) About 70s, maybe a little slower with 1 min rest

2) 4-5 miles at 6:10 pace or so

3) Around 32 each with a 200 jog

4) Haven't done them in a while but probably could do 5 of them at 5:40-5:45 w/1-2 mins rest

5) 800: 2:08, Mile: 4:52, 3200: 10:38, 8k XC: 29:30

Obviously my endurance is lacking. Last summer I pushed tempos too hard and couldn't finish them without straining. My best summer was before SR year of HS when we had longer progression runs/tempos were I would go 6-10 miles working down from 6:40s to 6:00s by the end.

I'd probably put you in

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed alternating with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000 at about 80s per 400 (200s at about 37s) take 1:-1:30 between each. Do more of them and/or longer as your fitness improves. But I really would like to see you run 37-38 for 200m for as many as you can. That will reinforced a faster rhythm.

1-2) tempo runs I'd have you run 3miles at about 6:00-6:10 pace then go right into 400s at 85-90s until you are full of it.

The important thing is to try to get you running a touch faster without struggling to do it.

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What is the reason shorter faster is recommended for this runner? Is it just because all the PR's are not extremely quick, and you would rather build more speed and let the endurance come on its own?

Thanks.

Hey malmo its me again. All the workouts I've given are done using trainers; I haven't done a single speed workout in spikes. if I were to use spikes, how much time should I subtract from those distances of 200 and up? Today I ran 6x200 repeats at 29 with a 60 break in my trainers very easily. What does that translate timewise for repeats in SoM? I also did 4x800 last week in 2:30 at a moderately comfortable pace.

MERICUHHH wrote:

Hey malmo its me again. All the workouts I've given are done using trainers; I haven't done a single speed workout in spikes. if I were to use spikes, how much time should I subtract from those distances of 200 and up? Today I ran 6x200 repeats at 29 with a 60 break in my trainers very easily. What does that translate timewise for repeats in SoM? I also did 4x800 last week in 2:30 at a moderately comfortable pace.

I don't know. You tell me how it went after you've done it. Tnx.

idcme wrote:------------

What is the reason shorter faster is recommended for this runner? Is it just because all the PR's are not extremely quick, and you would rather build more speed and let the endurance come on its own?

Thanks.

Yes.

Equinox2100 wrote:

I mean rest time between doubles of the whole workouts themselves, not the reps.

e.g) 9mile base in the morning, 150-300's later on. How much between the BASE and the REPS as workouts?

You're thinking too much. A session in the morning and a session in the afternoon or evening. It's not important when you do them.

LM wrote:

Malmo,

I am someone who best fits your 4) category person, and have decided I want to get as serious as possible because I enjoy running so darn much.

As a rising junior in college I obviously don't have a specific season coming up, and was wondering if SoM is still the best option given that situation.

I have about a year and a half of inconsistent running under my belt, with two 4 month periods where I averaged 35, and 50 mpw; in between those was very sporadic running. I'm definitely slow, with a 5:51 best mile time and a 20:23 best 5k time.

Just looking for some advice on where to start my development as a runner, assuming I want to ultimately come as close to maxing out my potential as I can. Any advice on what I should be doing is greatly appreciated.

I have a similar situation as well and would definitely be interested in your feedback!

malmo wrote:

HS senior

1) 150/200/300 as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 200/400/600/800/1000/1200 at 75-80

1-2) Try running 3 miles at 5:40, if that’s not too hard then go right into 1min rest/400m at 85, and repeat as long as you feel comfortable. Between the repeats at 2) and this we are trying to get your tempos runs faster without killing you.

so just to be clear, that's alternating between the faster workout and longer workout every other week, and doing the tempo run every week, correct?

For the 150s-300s, how long of a recovery do you suggest in between? i've had one coach give me 2 minutes for "full" recovery and another give 15...

Thanks a ton for the input. I followed the basic SOM template last summer and my 5kxc time dropped 1:20 from the previous year.

Also, is there anything you would suggest in order to be ready for the jump from 5k xc races to 8k?

You are a patient man, malmo

malmo wrote:

Shorter repeats aka neuromuscular training

16 x 150 accel 50, sprint 50, stride 50

12 x 200 accel 100m, sprint 50, stride 50

10 x 300 accel 100m, sprint 100m. stride 100m

Hi Malmo.

Isn't 16 accels too much volume for this kind of workout? (in particular, for fitness/competitive runners).

I ask this because Jay johnson recommends doing only 6-8 repeats:

(and other coaches also recommend low volume for these workouts).

Thanks

d.t. wrote:

Hi Malmo.

Isn't 16 accels too much volume for this kind of workout? (in particular, for fitness/competitive runners).

I ask this because Jay johnson recommends doing only 6-8 repeats:

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19514&PageNum=3

(and other coaches also recommend low volume for these workouts).

Thanks

LOL. I've never seen that before. Great minds think alike.

You're reading too much into the specifics here. There' nothing better or worse about 6-8 or 16 repeats. JJ just picked his number. I picked mine. I would normally prefer 16-24 of those, but I thought that scaling it down would be more appropriate to that specific poster.

SoM for me another guy with pretty good wheels

1) 150/200/ as prescribed in SOM alternates with

2) 1000/1200/1600/2000m at 77-80s

1-2) tempo 4-5 miles at 80-85s per lap as long as that feels comfortable.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my own questions about pace. It's always tough trying to figure out pace and workouts without a coach. I just started SoM this week and will continue it throughout the summer. I will check back in with you during my fall xc races and let you know how much my times have dropped!

malmo wrote:

Interesting stuff! wrote:

Malmo- I am curious about what you would suggest for after the SoM for a high school guy running cross country in the fall. What kind of guidelines would you create/do you have for fall training?

I'm not going to go there. As you can see, by providing a simple open-source schedule like SOM I've opened up a can of worms. By attempting to answer individual specifics as I just did, does not leave me satisfied at all. I do not have a real good feel for each of those individuals yet I tried to wing it anyway.

Trying to tell you what you should do for cross country season would require face time and individual attention. You're not going to get it from me. No offense intended.

No offense taken and I completely understand. I am not asking to be coached or for specifics, I was more curious about how you see the SoM evolving into the.........Season of Malmo? In other words, how is this summer training much different than what a high school kid would be doing during the fall cross country schedule- generally speaking? I am just curious to hear your thoughts- I love to talk training and to hear what other people think/do.

Wow, it all seems to makes sense now.

The past 2 summers I've ran more miles than I previously had in the spring season, but my times did not improve from the spring in the fall season. In fact I felt much more slow and stale...

But now looking at this plan, it seems so logical. The longer repeats are done at a pace that is not insanely fast, but together the repeats (and with the buildup of them during the summer) will prove to be maintenance, or even improve the speed/race aspect of an athlete.

While they are not THAT fast, they still are generally faster it seems than one would race in an 8k or 10k race in the fall.

I've had the thought that running more and more miles will make one "fast" but for some reason I only just realized that one has to actually run fast for that to happen.

Hopefully I actually understand...thank you malmo

Malmo,

I know this is a public forum and all but since your program is free, do you mind me posting it (and some of your responses here) on our team's blog?

Thanks!

Interesting stuff! wrote:

No offense taken and I completely understand. I am not asking to be coached or for specifics, I was more curious about how you see the SoM evolving into the.........Season of Malmo? In other words, how is this summer training much different than what a high school kid would be doing during the fall cross country schedule- generally speaking? I am just curious to hear your thoughts- I love to talk training and to hear what other people think/do.

OK, with that agreement here goes.

Cross country training, or training for any other distance event is not going to be much different that SOM other than the intensity levels, and that I'd prefer SOM to be done on the track where you can get constant feedback as to was these easier paces actually are.

Basically, all XC programs have the following elements: 1) longer repeats at or near race pace 2) a mixture of shorter repeats, which in the case of XC season tend to be hills, 3) some sort of tempo run. and 4) doubles.

That's it.

I wish someone, Letsrun, or anybody for that matter, would have a section devoted entirely to posting the training logs of real runners. When I was a young strapping buck you could get that information from Runner's World, believe it or not. Runner's World today is about as far removed from competitive running as Larry Flynt is to artistic photography. The closest anyone has come to the objective of collecting training logs together is Bob Hodge, who has put up the logs of about a dozen runners.

If you were to examine the training of successful XC Team you would find, by and large, that they are all very similar. Much more similar than different. If you were to examine enough of them real closely you would realize the specifics start to fade away and the big picture emerges.

Young developing runners benefit immensely by reading the training logs of successful runners/programs. They can measure the gaps in their own approach and also scale the newfound knowledge to their own situations. And yes, it can be fun to see how many different ways to structure the same old 5 x 1 mile workouts.

The closer you examine the soft, fuzzy brush strokes of a Monet, the more likely you are to step back and view the whole painting for what it is.

I'll give you an example. Posted below are the signifcant training sessions for Alberto Salazars 1977 XC season, in which Oregon defeated UTEP for the NCAA title. Below that I've posted my own 1976 XC season, in which I was undefeated, and set a course record on every course I ran on right up until I dislocated my shoulder the week of Nationals. Below that I've posted the significant workouts that led to Todd Williams 42:22 15k Ameican Record in 1995. While Williams wasn't training for XC you will see the similarities.

Alberto Salazar 1977 Cross Country season

Sept 5-11 105 miles

9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400 jog PM 4 miles

Sept 12-18 108 miles

9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy

9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles

9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy

Sept 19-25 110 miles

9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles

9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles

9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total

Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles

9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)

9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown

9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles

10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown

Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles

10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown

10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles

10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy

Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles

10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy

10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles

10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown

Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles

10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill, 4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown

10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.

Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles

10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown

10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy

Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles

10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown

11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown

11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330

11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)

Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles

11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown

11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)

11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown

11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown

Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles

11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30

11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles

11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile

Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles

11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.

11/22 T - 5 miles

11/23 W - 5 miles

11/24 T - 4 miles

11/25 F - 5 miles

11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)

==========================================================================================

My 1976 College Cross Country Season

Sept 5 - Sept 11 110 miles

9/7 AM 8 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 6x800 XC @ 2:30 w/2:00 jog; 3 mile warm-down

9/9 AM 7 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 3.5 miles fartlek; 3 mile warm-down

9/10 PM 3.5 mile warm-up; 10x North Choke Lane Hill; 3.5 miles easy

Sept 12 - Sept 18 116 miles

9/13 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 10x400 (65) w/200 jog; 3 miles easy

9/15 AM 10 miles slow PM 3 mile warm-up; 8x800 XC (2:10,2:20,2:12,2:28,2:17,2:15,2:13,2:10) w/3:00 jog; 2 mile warm-down

9/18 AM 3 mile warm-up; 5 mile time trial in 25:03; 5 mile warm-down PM 5 miles easy

Sept 19 - Sept 25 116 miles

9/20 AM 9 miles moderate PM 3 mile warm-up; 12x North Choke Hill; 3 miles slow

9/22 AM 9 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 3 mile XC in 14:43; 4 mile warm-down

9/25 AM vs Villanova 3 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 24:21.6 (1st); 4 mile warm-down PM 8 miles easy

Sept 26 - Oct 2 130 miles

9/27 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 12x North Choke Hill; 3 mile warm-down

9/29 AM 11 miles moderate PM 1 mile warm-up; 9.5 mile by-pass loop in 49:00; 1 mile warm-down

10/2 AM vs West Virginia 4 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 24:39.2 (1st, course record); 3 mile warm-down PM 5 miles easy

Oct 3 - Oct 9 125 miles

10/4 AM 9 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 10x400 (63.5) w/200 jog; 3 mile warm-down

10/6 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 2 x 1.5 miles XC(7:00,7:06); 3 mile warm-down

10/8 AM 5 miles slow PM vs Kent State 3 mile warm-up; 6 mile XC in 29:01 (1st, course record); 4 mile warm-down

Oct 10 - Oct 16 145 miles

10/11 AM 10 miles easy PM 3.5 mile warm-up; 8x800 XC (2:14,2:17,2:10,2:21,2:13,2:14,2:18,2:07) w/2:00 jog; 3.5 mile warm-down

10/13 AM 10 miles easy PM 3.5 mile warm-up; 4.5 mile fartlek; 3 mile warm-down

10/16 AM Penn State Open 3 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 24:01 (1st); 5 mile warm-down PM 7 miles easy

Oct 17 - Oct 23 130 miles

10/18 AM 9 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 14x North Choke Hill; 3.5 mile warm-down

10/20 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 1 mile 4:34, 4x400(66),800(2:16),400(62); 3 mile warm-down

10/23 AM vs Georgetown, William & Mary 3 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 23:54.7 (1st, course record); 4 miles slow

Oct 24 - Oct 30 103 miles

10/25 AM 7 miles moderate PM 3 mile warm-up; 15x400 @ 63 w/200 jog(60); 3 mile warm-down

10/27 AM 7 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up, 3x1.5 mile XC (6:58,7:36,7:55) w/3:00 rest, 3 mile warm-down

10/30 AM Central Collegiates 4 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 24:19 (1st, course record); 5 mile warm-down

Oct 31 - Nov 6 131 miles

11/1 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 10x800 XC (2:14, 2:16, 2:08, 2:22, 2:12, 2:13, 2:16, 2:07, 2:32, 2:15), 3 mile warm-down

11/3 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 4 miles fartlek; 3 miles easy

11/5 AM vs Pittsburgh 3 mile warm-up; 5 mile XC in 24:03 (1st); 5 mile warm-down

Nov 7 - Nov 13 130 miles

11/7 AM 1.5 miles easy, 9.5 mile by-pass loop in 53:10 PM 11 miles moderate

11/8 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 1 mile(4:28),2x800(2:12,2:15),1 mile(4:37),2x800(2:15,2:12),1 mile(4:53),400(61); 2 mile warm-down

11/10 PM 3 mile warm-up; 4x1.5 mile XC (7:07,7:17,7:14,7:24), 2 mile warm-down

11/12 AM 10 miles easy PM 3 mile warm-up; 4 miles fartlek; 3 mile warm-down

Nov 14 - Nov 20 82 miles

11/14 AM USTFF XC 3 mile warm-up; 10k race in 29:33 (1st, course record); 4 mile warm-down

11/15 PM 11 miles easy FELL and DISLOCATED SHOULDER

11/17 PM 3 mile warm-up; 10x440 (61,61,62,60,60,61,60,61,60,59), 3 miles easy, shoulder bad

11/19 AM 5 miles easy PM 3 miles easy, 3 miles fartlek, 3 miles easy..shoulder

Nov 21 - Nov 27 77 miles

11/22 AM NCAA XC Championship 3 mile warm-up; 10,000m XC in 29:07 (20th); 1 mile warm-down

11/23 PM 15 miles moderate

11/24 AM 9 miles moderate PM 10 miles hard

11/24 PM 12 miles easy

11/25 AM 2 miles easy

11/26 AM AAU XC 3 mile warmup, 10k race in 30:44 (12th), 3 mile warmdown.

==============================================================================

What it takes to run 42:22 at the 1995 Gate River Run? By Todd Williams

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts: Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace.

No you shouldn't stop doubling. Why would you think that?

People have been running in the morning before school or work for decades. heck, some people get up way early to go to an expensive health club to run on a treadmill or a stairclimber, but would never think of simply rollin out of bed just to run 20-30 minutes.

Thats metal right there.

[quote]malmo wrote:

(7) 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

quote]

You're Kiling Me Smalls wrote:

Malmo,

I know this is a public forum and all but since your program is free, do you mind me posting it (and some of your responses here) on our team's blog?

Thanks!

No problem. Just make sure that in discussion you articulate what SOM is about, and what it's not about. Make sure they understand that it's going to be easier than what they normally have done, and it's easier by design.

All hail to the 'Summer of Our Team's Blog'!