Deemphasizing Cross Country in HS

Good stuff. So if most of the year is not interval intense, when are intervals appropriate? I assume they can be used a little more readily for 800 and miler guys for race specificity?

This is a great piece for someone who would like to learn a little more of the science behind training 800 meters on up ...

http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/news021302.htm

Vocabulary will always be a problem because folks are stubborn about adopting a standard terminology. "Interval Training" means so many different things to so many different folks. Personally, I believe that mile race pace can be used just about anytime during the season depending on needs. Sometimes dead legs can be revived with some quicker stuff, but distance runners (2 milers

+) just don't need anything faster than 800 meter pace in my opinion. 800/1600 meters runners do, and how fast is where the "artistry" of coaching comes into play ... it depends on each athlete and what they are bringing physically to the table.

I can't emphasize enough that working a kid up to as many miles as each can handle. Every kid has a "right" amount of mileage. I coach boys; a kid who can handle doing 70 miles a week should probably be able to handle 7:00 per mile. That's 10 miles a day, taking 70 minutes. Is 70 minutes really all that much? I mean, come on you low mileage coaches out there ... 70 minutes? How much ancillary training are you doing?

love this thread wrote:

Good stuff. So if most of the year is not interval intense, when are intervals appropriate? I assume they can be used a little more readily for 800 and miler guys for race specificity?

I have found that high school athletes race so much, they get a ton of VO2 max stuff just from their races. I was surprised to find out that the less I used traditional VO2 max sessions, the better we did. That being said, last few weeks of a season is a good time for race pace stuff. I just try not to make the race pace workouts too hard. As for mile and below, you are right that they need more workouts. I had one coach tell me he used repeat 1000s at 5k pace as one of his recovery days for his 800 runners. (Keep in mind 800 runners rarely have fast 5k prs) I tried it and it worked great. I'm definitely not completely an anti interval guy I just think a great goal is to play with how little you can do and still get good results. I tell my kids to run most workouts as if they had to do it again the next day. With this in mind, we have done 1000s or 400s the day before mid season races and walked away with personal bests when I thought it would just be a training meet.

[

You're still in high school? You'd make a better coach than the vast majority of the people posting here. What did start out as a good thread turned into a place for mediocre coaches to vent excuses as to why they're mediocre. While these pretenders say higher mileage (60-80 mpw) coaches do not look after the long term development of their kids, the truth is that mileage coaches have far more kids who continue on to college and beyond. They say that coaches who actually succeed do it for their own ego, rather than for the sake of the kids. Truth is, successful coaches happen to have amazing mutual respect with the kids they coach; far more than the coaches who tell them it's best if they stay slow for four years before suddenly blossoming in college. Of course, with no taste of success, most of their kids give up the sport on a competitive level the day after their conference meet their senior year in high school. Exactly like you said, moderate intensity and progressive build up to decent mileage is the way to run fast in high school and be ready to run fast in college. You don't need hardcore intervals, as the OP questioned, just a variety of mixed paces that keep you coming back for more.[/quote]

Yikes, all these years I've done it all wrong. I have never had a girl run more than 45 miles in a week(most less), I even make them take one day off per week. I have found that healthy runners really enjoy it more and generally stay with the sport and continue to run well.

former cmass coach wrote:

Yikes, all these years I've done it all wrong. I have never had a girl run more than 45 miles in a week(most less), I even make them take one day off per week. I have found that healthy runners really enjoy it more and generally stay with the sport and continue to run well.

Well, I don't know about "all these years" but if I were you, I sure as heck would throw away the schedule from the last 12 months. That is, if you want to keep saying your athletes are uninjured and perform better each subsequent season. Was it two athletes with stress fractures in the last 12 months?

Well, can you top the last 12 months coaching wise?

Yes, it was two, one of them is a cross country skier who was training with her ski club on Sunday's instead of taking the day off as i instructed, not to mention the other five hours per week she trained using her ercolina for xc skiing, not sure if I deserve all the credit for her injury, but I'll take it if it makes you feel like a better man.

The same schedule seemed to work OK for Ari Lambie and Emily Jones, but I'm sure you have outdone that.

I will 2nd the statement of some of the earlier poster, you are an ass, if you could coach as well as you can belittle people you might have a leg to stand on. The school in CT., that fired you did the right thing.

Sis, as you know, neithe rof those girls was running more than 35 mpw, and we do some ancillary stuff which we hope can prevent injuries. You also know that I do not go crazy on the anaerobic stuff, matter of fact, I rarely do it. Still two girls down, why on earth would I go to 60 mpw or even 50? Even though I know it will produce results, just doesn't outweigh the risks.

My point, as well as some others, is that it is not steady mileage that injures, it's overdose on speed - or a combination of the two. We've already discussed in a previous thread how we have different interpretations of your anaerobic work. My interpretation, as well as some members of your team, is that it's pretty intense. I think that's where most injuries come from. So when you come on here and mock people for running mileage because it hurts kids, you have to know you set yourself up for being accountable to that statement. When you have two sfx and at least one other injury that forces an athlete to take time off, when your kids plan on going to nationals two different times but don't because your schedule didn't quite work out, you might not want to be so glib. It's a glass houses thing. I 100% agree it's about enjoying the sport and staying with it. I disagree that people should pile on any coach who has a different method than they do. You attacked my high school coach in a thread some ago. You had no idea he had a record you could never match. This is what it all comes down to. Every person I "belittle" has made some self serving statement about how they do what they do because they care about not hurting kids and if you you do it differently, you must not care. That's not acceptable. In all seriousness, find a negative post I have ever made that wasn't in response to someone else needlessly bashing others to raise themselves up. I've had kids get hurt. It's why I turn my schedule upside down to find something that won't hurt them. In the last 12 months, I'm happy to put 1)how much kids improve year after year and 2) zero injuries up to show that what I've got seems to be working. That's what I'm trying to share here.

Ok Peter, Your post above about all the mediocre coaches on here etc. is one example of you belittling many people.

As far as my interpretation of anaerobic work, it is what it is, anaerobic is anaerobic, I have my kids do very little, almost none. We do one workout per week when we have a race, two if no race, pretty basic stuff.The entire fall is all LT, hills or tempo, winter is pretty much the same. This so called intense program is very similar to the one I used at Bromfield, 4 injuries in 9 yrs, the sad thing is that with the same program we get that many injuries per week here at LS. The trainer says the kids are soft, I tend to agree.

I'm not mocking people for using mileage, I love it, like I said earlier, hard to go up when I am already experiencing problems at this level. I ran 9:50 for 2 miles at 18 yes. old running 35 mpw, I ran 48:24 for 10 miles at 22 yrs. old running 100+ (112 the week of that race) I know mileage works, I did not go near a track for over 1 year prior to that 10 mile race, except for 1 5k indoors 3 months prior.

Not sure who you are getting your info from regarding my coaching, guessing it's the girl with the Iliac issue, her mom and the former coach are close, only a guess.

One other thing, I'll put my first 11 yrs as a coach up against your old hs coach anytime. Not bragging, just sayin.

ok, first of all, just because you call 5k race pace LT, work, it doesn't mean it is. Your top girls were running 5:40 pace for that "LT" work. That is race pace, plain and simple. The late season implosion wasn't really that big a shock to some of us.

So in your first 11 years coaching you had more than:

1 Olympic Medalist

2 additional NCAA Champions accounting for around 10 Titles

2 More Oly Trials Qualifiers in addition to the above

5 other athletes compete in national collegiate championships (2 Div I, 1 Div 2 (All American)2 NAIA)

Who was it who pissed higher on the wall, was it Townshend or Daltry .... ;)

Not a fair question; Daltry pissed over the wall. Never made a mark on the wall itself.

Some Coach wrote:

Who was it who pissed higher on the wall, was it Townshend or Daltry .... ;)

Guess he won then ......

We should probably distinguish between training girls and guys. 45 mpw is a pretty solid number for a high school girl, while it's mediocre for a guy.

some coach,

You have had at least two teams peak like absolute monsters. I mean showing up one week looking like they could be competitive and then a couple weeks later destroying everyone. Last 7-14 days, what's different? Intensity, mileage, volume of quality compared to the season.

sisyphus wrote:

ok, first of all, just because you call 5k race pace LT, work, it doesn't mean it is. Your top girls were running 5:40 pace for that "LT" work. That is race pace, plain and simple. The late season implosion wasn't really that big a shock to some of us.

So in your first 11 years coaching you had more than:

1 Olympic Medalist

2 additional NCAA Champions accounting for around 10 Titles

2 More Oly Trials Qualifiers in addition to the above

5 other athletes compete in national collegiate championships (2 Div I, 1 Div 2 (All American)2 NAIA)

Who was running 5:40 pace? For what?, what late season implosion? It's flattering that you monitor my workouts from the opposite coast, at least get it right.

Yes, most HS girls run slower than LT pace for a 5k xc race. I think I gave you an example of one girl with a 17:16 pr, who was tested at the OT center as having an LT training pace of 5:31 per mile, you do the math.

To be perfectly honest, the last four weeks of the XC/Outdoor season drives me crazy ... I have never really developed a formula for peaking. The other 10 months I am supremely confident in what we do ... the other two, I'm a mess. The kids work so damn hard that I don't want to be the reason why they blow up. If something bad happens during indoor, oh well .... it's indoor. It may actually indicate what needs to happen the next few weeks.So, having said that, here are the things that we have done.1. Decrease mileage 10%, no more than 20%. Drop it too much and the kids get flat. Malmo gets credit for my philosophy on this ... "live like a clock" and he is so right. I used to drop it more, and it didn't seem to help, if anything it hurt.2. All quality work drops by 25% volume-wise, so proportionally there is less quality.3. Sets of short Threshold reps immediately followed by some sort of mile race pace stuff. I really like to have the mile race pace stuff go uphill. Maybe something like [1200 meters @ Threshold-300 meters up a gradual hill @ mile race pace]. Maybe three sets of that depending on the kids mileage. You'd think the hilly part of it would be XC specific, but I like the "lifting" aspect for track as well.AND ... I try to stay away from the kids b/c my nerves are contagious. If I've done my job they know what to do, and I don't need to be up their ass.BUT ... you've done real well at the end of seasons as well ... what's your take on the last four weeks?

sisyphus wrote:

some coach,

You have had at least two teams peak like absolute monsters. I mean showing up one week looking like they could be competitive and then a couple weeks later destroying everyone. Last 7-14 days, what's different? Intensity, mileage, volume of quality compared to the season.

former cmass coach wrote:

Yes, most HS girls run slower than LT pace for a 5k xc race.

Thank you. After that, no further discussion is needed.

My last thought is that if I had girls race with hamstring injuries, shin splints that turn into stress fractures, calf pulls, and to top it all off, a concussion (which I wouldn't let them do, BTW)the last thing I would do is call them soft. LS kids have always been amongst the toughest I've ever seen. But of course it can't be your fault so it must be them.

I love the 1200 threshold/ 300 hill hard. Very similar to some of my favorite workouts. I've tried so many different things and gotten good results from vastly different approaches. I must admit, while I don't think it's necessary, I've gotten to like drastic reduction in mileage the final week. I have also done really well with partial quality either every day or 4 of the last 5 days before the big one. I think it works best when - as we've been talking about - race pace and faster has been minimal until the last month. I'd say the best peak I've ever seen was off of, solely tempo and racing until 4 weeks to go. Then race pace and a little mile pace for three weeks but the workouts aren't killer. Then medium days for three days, a day off, and a very short race pace day before.