Ultramarathoner Jurek takes diet to the extreme

bootsie wrote:

And bear in mind that the whole ingredient list argument in re: meat= meat should also include penicillin and tetracycline and whatever growth hormones and steroids were used, plus traces of prion material from other cows that they've ingested via chicken shit and blood which makes up about 40% of cattle feed. Yum.

Ha. I thought about mentioning that, but I knew I could count on you to give a detailed analysis. :)

Reverse their evolution? People stuck on needing to eat meat, dairy, eggs in 2010 are the ones whose evolution stalled out.

Precisely Watson wrote:

bootsie wrote:

And bear in mind that the whole ingredient list argument in re: meat= meat should also include penicillin and tetracycline and whatever growth hormones and steroids were used, plus traces of prion material from other cows that they've ingested via chicken shit and blood which makes up about 40% of cattle feed. Yum.

Ha. I thought about mentioning that, but I knew I could count on you to give a detailed analysis. :)

I'm pretty certain, if you were concerned with these things, you can purchase meat that is a little more carefully produced. Overall this is a dumb argument, think of all the pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and big corporate ag-business control that goes into producing your soy and veggies.

Face it your arguments are crap and should really be focused on how big business controls all food production.

I'm guessing, and hoping, that if you are particular enough about antibiotics etc that you would at least be concerned with what is in your "fresh produce", just like many similarly concerned omnivores take the time to buy meat that was produced with the health of the consumer and the prey in mind.

How many lives do you have to kill to put together a nice vegan meal (and don't discount all of the bugs that are slaughtered every time they spray the field; even if it is with some organic oil soap)? One range fed cow cold last a whole family a year, and all of the plants killed by the cow at least provided sustance for the enjoyable life it had before they dead-bolted it.

Vegans are an embarrassing joke. Show me one elite athlete who is vegan. Lagat, Meb, Abdi all eat large amounts of meat and are not bashful about this because they know how crucial it is to their success.

Yes, avoid meat and continue with your skinny fat ugly anatomies while you are lagging behind the rest of the world with your ignorant redemptions.

Well, you're exactly right.... it is agribusiness throughout both the animal and vegetable food production chain that has caused an ecological disaster. The animal end of things also includes an ethical one too. Personally, I do everything I can to buy locally, seasonally, and organic, and i have a big garden in my backyard that I get most of my veggies from in the summer. As fuel prices rise, I think the shift towards local foods will increase dramatically.

u idiot wrote:

Reverse their evolution? People stuck on needing to eat meat, dairy, eggs in 2010 are the ones whose evolution stalled out.

Good for yooouuuuu u idiot!

sven vath wrote:

Vegans are an embarrassing joke. Show me one elite athlete who is vegan. Lagat, Meb, Abdi all eat large amounts of meat and are not bashful about this because they know how crucial it is to their success.

Yes, avoid meat and continue with your skinny fat ugly anatomies while you are lagging behind the rest of the world with your ignorant redemptions.

Carl Lewis, Edwin Moses, and Scott Jurek would disagree with you. And so would I. I'm not "elite," but I did a 3:55 (1500), 8:28, and 14:37 meat-free, which, considering my appalling genetic non-disposition for running, I feel was pretty decent.

joiwef: Here is the ingredient list for a Boca burger:

WATER, SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, WHEAT GLUTEN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF METHYLCELLULOSE, SALT, CARAMEL COLOR, DRIED ONIONS, YEAST EXTRACT, SESAME OIL, HYDROLYZED WHEAT PROTEIN, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR (NON-MEAT), DISODIUM GUANYLATE, DISODIUM INOSINATE. CONTAINS: SOY, WHEAT, SESAME.

Precisely Watson: What's so bad about needing more than one plant product to make something that immitates meat?

Well, that's pretty much the opposite of a "whole food", no?

Not that unprocessed foods need be anyone's religion any more than not eating animals, or whatever, but man oh man what a mishmash of super processed bits of this and that. Even the two primary ingredients (aside from water) are extracts, not even close to whole vegetables or grains. It may be vegan, but it's hardly food.

Plus that'd be horrifically unhealthy for anyone like me, with a bum thyroid. Soy = bad for thyroid, maybe more so in concentrated extracts like this (and let's not even consider estrogenic properties). Wheat gluten = I'm allergic, as are increasing numbers of folks, especially those with autoimmune issues.

Suggest Dr. Praeger's for veggie patties (how about we don't call things burgers if they're not meat) - they're pretty tasty, and compare the ingredient list:

Well, you're exactly right.... it is agribusiness throughout both the animal and vegetable food production chain that has caused an ecological disaster. The animal end of things also includes an ethical one too. Personally, I do everything I can to buy locally, seasonally, and organic, and i have a big garden in my backyard that I get most of my veggies from in the summer. As fuel prices rise, I think the shift towards local foods will increase dramatically.

[/quote]

I agree with your post for the most part, but how, if done properly and sustainably, is the farming of animals any more unethical than the farming of plants? This is the part that bothers me most with the vegan arguments. I just don't see it.

McGurk wrote:

I agree with your post for the most part, but how, if done properly and sustainably, is the farming of animals any more unethical than the farming of plants? This is the part that bothers me most with the vegan arguments. I just don't see it.

Because cows and chickens and pigs are sentient beings who have the same capacity for feeling pain and suffering in the same way that cats and dogs can (animals for whom we afford legal protections against such suffering). The factory farm industry inflicts an unbelievable amount of pain and suffering on these animals, depriving them of all their given instincts, and slaughtering them in the most inhumane ways possible.

Ok, fine, I'm not big on Boca myself. Just the way you seemed to think a list of like 8 ingredients with a couple of weird sounding names in the <2% category was going to create a compelling argument that Boca was somehow unhealthy, not to mention the childish 'write everything in capital letters so it looks bold and scary' train of thought. Plus, not everyone has allergies like you do. No one said soy burgers were the perfect food. I don't get where you're coming from with the "processed mishmash." So it has ingredients... big deal? Either way, that's a far cry from saying anything substantive about the product's healthiness.

Yet you don't really know. Illiterate moron.

McGurk wrote:

Well, you're exactly right.... it is agribusiness throughout both the animal and vegetable food production chain that has caused an ecological disaster. The animal end of things also includes an ethical one too. Personally, I do everything I can to buy locally, seasonally, and organic, and i have a big garden in my backyard that I get most of my veggies from in the summer. As fuel prices rise, I think the shift towards local foods will increase dramatically.

I agree with your post for the most part, but how, if done properly and sustainably, is the farming of animals any more unethical than the farming of plants? This is the part that bothers me most with the vegan arguments. I just don't see it.[/quote]

Um ever heard of organic? I can find huge displays of organic produce where I shop. I have yet to see any organic meat from animals who died of natural causes. Maybe you just have no clue how food is produced in this country.

STFU. wrote:

McGurk wrote:

Well, you're exactly right.... it is agribusiness throughout both the animal and vegetable food production chain that has caused an ecological disaster. The animal end of things also includes an ethical one too. Personally, I do everything I can to buy locally, seasonally, and organic, and i have a big garden in my backyard that I get most of my veggies from in the summer. As fuel prices rise, I think the shift towards local foods will increase dramatically.

I agree with your post for the most part, but how, if done properly and sustainably, is the farming of animals any more unethical than the farming of plants? This is the part that bothers me most with the vegan arguments. I just don't see it.

Um ever heard of organic? I can find huge displays of organic produce where I shop. I have yet to see any organic meat from animals who died of natural causes. Maybe you just have no clue how food is produced in this country.[/quote]

So when people challenge what you say you prove you are right by calling them names?

The concept of organic has already been implied, or I have missed your point. And there is plenty of organic meat. Do you really think they wait for the crop to keel over an die before they gather them and ship them off to the grocery?

You do not harvest crops after they have died, this consumption can only occur if you shorten, or alter, the plants life or reproductive future. In boths cases, meat or plant material, we are either harvesting (taking without consent) a portion of a living creature or cutting its' life short. Beans, as well as fertilized eggs, are developing offspring which we choose to abort without consent of the parent. Fruits, which intentionally pass their seeds through animal digestive tracts, are meant to be eaten, the plant expects it. On the other hand I do not see the benefit to plants by us harvesting their leaves, spawn, roots....etc.

The problem with the vegan thought, in my mind, is that this repsect for the need to take or force another life is lost. Is there really a difference between forcing plants to grow at nutrient depriving densities and hearding cattle into a manure filled barn? In my opinion no, and it doesn't make either one fair or right with respect to the wholeness of it all, but once we repect that does it matter; we need to eat. Unless you are taking nutrients from life without impeding lifespan, reproduction or form then it really is all the same. Just because you feel the same way animals do, doesn't mean other organisms don't respond to stress as well.

So far you are being too narrow minded, an that is the problem. Stop being so speciist. And please use thoughts and not insults to win arguments.

"Fruits, which intentionally pass their seeds through animal digestive tracts, are meant to be eaten, the plant expects it."

Just so you don't misdirect the conversation and shove this down my throat, I do understand that not all fruits, including bean pods with the seeds, do not fall into the above catagory.

Lower pesticide levels in a vegan diet:

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/05/industrial-meat-comes-with-antibiotics-and-endocrine-disruptors---but-going-veg-lowers-toxins-immedi.html

Precisely Watson: I don't get where you're coming from with the "processed mishmash." So it has ingredients... big deal?

Ingredients are ingredients, eh? Whether it's carrots and peas and string beans, or soy protein concentrate and wheat gluten, it's all the same - you know, ingredients, words on a list - is that it?

You're not really up to the minute (or even the decade) on thoughts on nutrition and health, are you? Which is fine, nobody needs to be obsessed about this stuff. Just FYI, lots and lots of people in recent years are moving away from highly processed foods that no longer resemble its constituents which grew out of the ground, or in the ground, or on a tree, or walked around on two or four legs. Michael Pollan is a big name; here's an intro:

Again, if you're not aware of the health-food crowd's concerns about soy and gluten, fine; I'm telling you those are specific things people are avoiding even if they don't have known allergies.

The executive summary: to many who have a more active interest in food & nutrition, the Boca ingredient list reads like a parody of what not to eat. It's the eight hour marathoner of veggie patties. You can say, "what's the difference between this one and the 2:25 marathoner - they both finished 26 miles, right?" but nobody who races or follows the sport would ask that.

And I wasn't the guy listing those ingredients in ALL CAPS.

JUREK HAS A SILVER MEDAL AT A THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

The Boca ingredients were copied and pasted from Boca's website, where they had them in the childish 'write everything in capital letters so it looks bold and scary' form. Go eat a bunch of crappy processed food and look down on people who eat horrible meat, I don't think you will be converting anyone into a vegan based on your arguments here.