800m training

bryxcrunner wrote:

Maybe I'm just good at workouts but I can do 10-12 400s averaging 66-67s with 60sec. rec. Wouldn't 70 for only 6 be too slow?

the difference between running 67 and 60 is HUGE!

70 was just a conservative guess.

the point is, 60s are way too fast for you right now for that type of workout.

by the way, if you can run 67s with 60 rest, you are in decent shape for a mile, but maybe more focus on power/speed?

I want the best competition possible every meet though. Other runners knowing what I'm capable of will most likely push harder and give me a better race which will hopefully result in better times. I'd rather lose a race running 2 flat than win with a 2:05. Another thing I'm wondering is that I'm kinda big for a runner. I'm 6ft, and 163lbs and I'll probably end up 6'4 or 6'5 by the time I'm a senior. Is that going to make me slow? When I was running the 5ks I'd see a lot of skinny little people.

As long as you keep training, don't worry about your height.

I've seen big 6'1 180lb guys running great 800s.

So I shouldn't worry even if I get to be 6'5, 180 or something like that? I want to be a good mile too. Could it be I'm progressing so quickly because I have the body of someone who looks like they'd be in college?

bryxcrunner wrote:

Maybe I'm just good at workouts but I can do 10-12 400s averaging 66-67s with 60sec. rec. Wouldn't 70 for only 6 be too slow?

You need more aerobic support to be able to have that workout translate into a good race.

It's actually sort of amazing that you can even do that workout with only 60s rest. I think if you can do that workout, you have some potential down the road. I had a guy run 1:54/4:24 last season and I don't think he could have done that workout on 60s rest.

But put those tools aside for now, put in work slower than even 5k pace.

Lots of easy running- maybe add a moderate long finish to some of these runs or a shorter and faster finish to SOME of these runs....

Do some threshold running at various distances and intensities (3milers @ 60-75 seconds slower per mile than 5k pace and 5-6 miler runs 75-90sec slower than 5k pace)

maybe even some longer intervals starting at 10k pace and working down to 5k pace, then maybe 3200 pace at the end.

But keep the tools you have sharp...some short hill sprints (keep it under 600m total) and some RELAXED strides when you feel the need.

It just takes time..

I've had some great workouts that I've done over the course of my training and I've got everything documented. When I'm curious about how I did on a previous month's workout or race I just look back on it. Perhaps my best workout to date was 5*1500m with 3min rest where I went 5:06, 5:03, 5:05, 4:57, 4:52. I ran a road 5k 2 weeks after that workout and only got 18:11 when the workout suggests that I could actually do about 16:30. The last 5k I ran where I hit 17:22 I came through 2miles in about 10:07 and just ran out of gas so I agree I need to put in much more mileage but I'm acceling at the shorter stuff 1mile and below

As a response to the tread as a whole...what is a fair conversion for a 600m time to an 800m time? taking into account that one may be more of a 400/800 guy and another may be a 800/1500 guy. For example what would a 1:20 with relatively even splits translate to?

You need longer distance work and time to develop at longer distances. Also you need to stop racing your workouts so much. That 5x1500 would have done you way more good if you had run them in 5:20 instead of 5:00. As it was you basically did the workout at race intensity. You're leaving your best performances out on the track at practice. And look into doing some tempo runs or other types of overdistance work, especially if you want to eventually do well at 1500 and above.

800er wrote:

As a response to the tread as a whole...what is a fair conversion for a 600m time to an 800m time? taking into account that one may be more of a 400/800 guy and another may be a 800/1500 guy. For example what would a 1:20 with relatively even splits translate to?

Did through the Sub 1:50 thread...it was covered in-depth to say the least.

I do need more distance and I definitely would rather have my best performances in races. I guess that could be why I need a coach

bryxcrunner wrote:

I've had some great workouts that I've done over the course of my training and I've got everything documented. When I'm curious about how I did on a previous month's workout or race I just look back on it. Perhaps my best workout to date was 5*1500m with 3min rest where I went 5:06, 5:03, 5:05, 4:57, 4:52. I ran a road 5k 2 weeks after that workout and only got 18:11 when the workout suggests that I could actually do about 16:30. The last 5k I ran where I hit 17:22 I came through 2miles in about 10:07 and just ran out of gas so I agree I need to put in much more mileage but I'm acceling at the shorter stuff 1mile and below

Without taking anything away from what the other posters have already commented on this workout, another way to look at why your 1500m repeats fail to translate to a faster 5k time is that you are not quite a longer distance type runner, but physiologically u r more a pure mid-dist type, leaning a bit more to speed as yr strength.

I thk u r able to run that fast on those repeats due more to yr natural speed/speed endurance rather than high lactate threshold. And that includes being able to do 10-12 400s at 66-67 w 60sec rest easily for yr current level of 800m ability. Some tempo work might help u but not too much as u seem to be more a speedy (but not quite fully sprinter-type) mid-d runner. For you Peter Coe's axiom of "if speed is the name of the game, never stray too far from it" applies more poignantly than for most others, in my personal opinion.

That seems cool that I could be a natural mid distance runner. Was that Peter Coe guy a natural mid distance runner? I'll have to find that book. Another question to anybody. I go to high school in Texas. If I decide to go out for the team at my 2A school would I have a chance to run at any of the big hs meets like Texas Relays if my school doesn't go to that one? Like if I have ran fast enough times will my coach enter me? I recently heard about guys like Craig Lutz that runs in Texas and I'd like to race him in the mile

What are some of the 2A schools in your district?

Littlefield, Slaton, Shallowwater. I think we are district 3 in 2A

Did you run cross country?

bryxcrunner wrote:

I do need more distance and I definitely would rather have my best performances in races. I guess that could be why I need a coach.

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Yes, I think you need distance work and time to absorb it. You might have sub 2 potential? It's not clear.

In HS i was a 2:05 guy, but only 5:01 for the mile and did less than 20 mpw. At 21 I got into road racing, could only do 39:00 10k but could do 2:07 800 anytime, on 18 mpw. Later at 27 increased to 21 mpw, could do 6 x 64-65, but only a 18:05 5k! At 28 increased to 40 mpw, mile pr = 4:47, 5K =16:49.

At 32, increase to 47mpw, mile pr= 4:41, 5k = 15:57.

At 33 could still do 2:05 800. I never did serious speed work for the 800. Try some of the good workouts from some of the other posters. Good luck

edumacator wrote:

You need longer distance work and time to develop at longer distances. Also you need to stop racing your workouts so much. That 5x1500 would have done you way more good if you had run them in 5:20 instead of 5:00. As it was you basically did the workout at race intensity. You're leaving your best performances out on the track at practice. And look into doing some tempo runs or other types of overdistance work, especially if you want to eventually do well at 1500 and above.

This is one of the best pieces of advice on here.

This year in cross, I had a couple of kids who were fairly talented but young (girl in 2nd year of cross, boy in first). Both wanted to always work harder/train more/run intervals and tempo faster. I had to put strict speed limits on them for our interval workouts so that they would not leave their best races in training.

Both progressed steadily through the season with the girl ending up 5th at the CA state meet (in our division) and the boy (a freshman) qualifying for state and ending up as the #13 frosh for all divisions combined.

Our key was that the workouts were never too hard and our easy days were never too easy. I tried to teach the runners that each day has its purpose and that if they could achieve their purpose running at a certain pace, then it was a waste of energy running the workout at a faster pace.

For instance, if we were trying to work on being mechanically smooth, we would run at about mile race pace and we would take plenty of rest. If the goal is mechanical smoothness, you don't want to go into your repeats tired. so, if we were doing 400s (and we might only have done 3-4 in a workout) we would take a good 2-3 min between them. We would usually do a 4-5 mile progression (progressing to steady state pace) run prior to this.

If our goal was to improve lactate threshold (the pace at which you can still run comfortably) we did the workouts at the minimum pace needed to work that system. The athletes were never allowed to go too hard on those workouts. We often did our threshold workout in the form of intervals with very short recoveries (5 x 1200 @ tempo pace with 1 min recovery). If you look at our workout times, they are not that impressive, but the kids always raced well. My freshman boy ran a 17:02 about 2/3 of the way throuh the season, but had almost never run that pace in a workout. The "hardest" interval session he did this year was 3 x 1k @ 3:20-3:25 (16:40 to 17:05 pace) with 6 min recovery. For our tempo interval 1200s, my boy almost never went faster than 4:27-4:28 (5:55 pace) even though he could do 4 mile tempo runs at the same pace without stopping.

So, if my athletes never worked "hard" in training, how did they continue to improve so steadily in races? The answer is a steady application of moderate intensity workouts, but the intensity of the workout was tightly controlled so that the athletes would be able to come back the next day and still do good training.

I had a different girl last year in track who came into the season with an 800 PR of 2:37 from the previous season. She had a good steady pre season build up last year and opened up her outdoor season in early march with a PR effort 2:35. Often when kids open up the season with a PR, they don't progress much during the season or go backward. This girl steadily progressed and ran PRs in every big race of the season (discounting league dual meets where she often had to do 4 events) and ended up running 2:26 at our league championship meet. I don't have her specific workouts here at home, but I will look up what she was doing last winter and post it later. It was similar in philosophy to what I've posted about my cross country runners this season, but more geared toward being smooth and efficient at 400-1600 race paces.

No, I didn't run xc. I like the 5ks on the road and did a few when xc season was going on though. I ran one this morning and got another pr in 16:39 so I was right about the shape I was in as far as improved. My splits were 5:12, 5:26, 5:29 and then I outsprinted the guy I was drafting off of the entire race to win it. He was about 40 years old and pretty quick and i didnt think too happy that i used him to draft the whole way, because every time he slowed i didnt pass and just kept tucked behind. The race director said the course was usatf certified so it was a legit pr. Before the race he said he had recently ran a 5mile race in 26:20 which I'm thinking is pretty fast. I couldnt even get any sleep last night because i was anxious about the race and just wired myself with dr pepper. As for the other post, I think 10k is too far and don't think I'll be running any of those any time soon. I just don't want to do xc for some reason. My training for this week was this,

M- 45minutes run

Weights and abs

T- 1600m time trial 4:40.4 (65, 70, 72, 73)

5minutes easy warming up and cooling down

W- 45minutes run

Weights and abs

TR- 45minutes run

F- 45minutes run

S- 5k race

5mins easy warming up and cooling down, no strides, I saw people doing that but I feel like I'd loose energy doing that. I get out quick regardless

Sn- 60minutes run

I'm going to run a 400m time trial next week Wednesday to see where I'm at as of now for that and see if I can break 54.

What are your views on vo2 max testing? I've heard of people having it done and it's suppssed to access your fitness potential?

There is a lot of good stuff in this thread, and I wouldn't be surprised if this hadn't been mentioned already, but one of your problems may be pacing. As far as the time trial goes, 57-68 is a pretty silly way to run a 2:05, and sets you up to blow up and drop a 2:10. If your have 54-400 speed you should be unable to unleash a pretty decent kick and run people down well, and in general run a faster time overall, if you start slower. I was about the same speed as you when I was your age (and I was and am straight-up freakishly tall for this sport, so you certainly can't use that as an excuse), and I found that because I was more of a speed guy I ran my best races when I aimed for about 60-flat or even 61.

There was an awesome article posted on here a year or so ago that included a statistical breakdown of 200 splits in Olympic 800 races, and the difference between the Gold medalists and middle of the pack finishers in terms of pacing strategy was remarkable. The graph for the medalists pretty consistently showed a slight decrease in pace throughout the first 600 and then a slight final uptick. Something like: 25.0 - 26.0 - 26.5 - 25.5 for a 1:43.?. In contrast, the guys who didn't do so well, especially those who were expected to be competitive but bombed, tended to be all over the place, especially with very hard starts. Watch Nick Symmonds win one of those Pre races to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Because the 800 is such an adrenal event, the temptation is always there to kill it from the gun and try to blow your PR away. You have to do that occasionally to see what's really down in the legs, but don't do it all the time. Usually the big PRs come when you nail your splits on the first lap and find yourself next to some other hard-charging SOB in the last 150.