Did Coe Really Only Run 60 miles A Week

Here's a sample week from Seb Coe's training at age 16:

1. 14-km cross-country running

2. rest day

3. (7 x 800 m)

4. (10 x 400 m)

5. a.m. 8 km

p.m. (5 x 200 m) + (2 x 300 m) + (3 x 100 m)

6. 1500-m heats

7. 1,500-m final (first, in 3:55 with last 300 m in 42 s)

How many total miles for this week would you guess? 50? 60?70?

According to Peter Coe, the week's total is 17 miles (27 km). Can anyone explain how he calculated that?

Seb Coe certainly knew how to make himself strong for the Championship races.

I am willing to accept 60mpw as an average, above which he ran to gain strength, and below which he ran during the Racing season.

Coe - 2 Gold Medals at 1500, 2 Silver Medals at 800. El G - 1 Silver Medal at 1500. Coe defeated two of the greatest 1500 runners of all time Ovett and Cram in RACES! While El G choked in the 1500 final in which he was a heavy favorite. El G is a time trial champion, Coe is a two-time Olympic Champion. Also if I'm not mistaken, in 1984, Coe ran heats and semis in the 1500 on back to back days, then rested one day and ran a 3:32 final

Bazza,

Here's what Martin writes: "Thus my despair when you say things such as "has it occured to you that today's middle distance runners do high mileage for a good reason?".

What good reason is that, if it's demostratably true that a mid-mileage programme produced results that have yet to be approached, let alone improved upon, in more than 20 years."

There is no disputing Coe's greatness as a championship runner, but if we look at his PBs, it is perhaps fair to say that he is held in such high regard on the strength of 3 freak performances (compared to the rest of his times): 1:41.73 and 1:42.33 for the 800m, and 3:29.77 for the 1500m. Compare that to the times posted, with regularity by Kipketer or El Guerrouj....

How can Martin claim the superiority of a mid-mileage(!!!) programme (very low mileage is what I would call it!)

oldguy wrote:

Here's a sample week from Seb Coe's training at age 16:

1. 14-km cross-country running

2. rest day

3. (7 x 800 m)

4. (10 x 400 m)

5. a.m. 8 km

p.m. (5 x 200 m) + (2 x 300 m) + (3 x 100 m)

6. 1500-m heats

7. 1,500-m final (first, in 3:55 with last 300 m in 42 s)

How many total miles for this week would you guess? 50? 60?70?

According to Peter Coe, the week's total is 17 miles (27 km). Can anyone explain how he calculated that?

I think that does say it all.....

Bazza, you also write: "Martin also said that Coe would still be able to reach the finals of the 800m and 1500m at modern Championships. You disagreed with this and also stated that the quaifying at modern major games is harder than 20 years ago. That statistics do not bear this out."

I disagreed with Martin only on the basis that it could not be done on 60M a week (my point was therefore that Coe was clearly doing more mileage than he said).

And yes, qualifying at modern major games is harder than 20 years ago... I wish I could find a link to the LA and Sidney qualifying rounds to prove my point though...

Speaking of Coe - anyone know how to get a copy of Coes circuit training from RW back in 1980?

Why would a half miler need to run more than 120 times his race distance in one week?

just asking wrote:

Why would a half miler need to run more than 120 times his race distance in one week?

Because the basic aerobic endurance systems requires much more work than anaerobic systems. With respect to higher energy systems, a little goes a long way. Additionally, your capability to improve your anaerobic capacity is very limited, whereas your capability to improve your aerobic capacity is unlimited. Improve it as much as you can.

Coe was a much better "racer" than El G. The last 11 - 12 years have seen middle and long distance running become more and more nothing but examples of time trials. Fast times, yes, but very few real races. Rabbit takes off, El G follows him, EPO boy Lagat locks in behind El G ... and the rabbit(s) drop out at 900m - 1k, El G rolls in, Lagat hangs on for second. Over and over. What happens to El G in real races? He trips, he gets outkicked by a guy who raced the 800 and 1k, etc. Yeah, yeah, he FINALLY did some successful racing in '03 - after how many years on the circuit? It won't be a major surprise if he loses the 1500 in Athens this summer. In fact, he probably will.

The rounds of the 800 in LA were brutal and tough. Four heats in the 800 - day after day. Then the 1500 ... brutal. These days, the runners have been getting more rest. The 800 rounds in '96 were rough as well, but the athletes had TWO DAYS off from the semi to the final.

It isn't far fetched at all to picture Coe kicking down El G in the homestretch of a real race. El G may claim he could run 1:42. Maybe he could have. But not anymore. And he never did, so all we can go with is his PR. Could he have handled Coe in an 800? Never. Could Coe have handled El G in a 1500? If it were unrabbited, there is a good possibility of yes being the answer. Take the tracks and EPO away from many of today's top runners and we might all be shocked at how they would fare against those "inferior" runners from the past.

I'm not so sure Jim Ryun didn't have the greatest "natural" ability amongst milers - after all, he did finish in 2:46 in his WR 1500, on dirt, 100 degree weather, smog, no drugs ... How would he fare against El G if he had trained with all the same knowledge, etc.? Snell was probably too heavy (at his height) to run much faster in the mile, but he possibly could have dropped the 800 record farther if he had had some competition - or rabbits as they have today. Same goes for many of the stars of the past.

All the conjecture and argument is fun. But in the end, facts are facts. Coe has two 1500 golds and two 800 silvers at the Oly games. El G has one silver in the 1500. Win or lose - Coe was a racer. The same can't be said about El G. In the last 8 years or so, how many unrabbited races has he really won (at the world class level)? One?

flamboyant wrote:

And yes, qualifying at modern major games is harder than 20 years ago... I wish I could find a link to the LA and Sidney qualifying rounds to prove my point though...

Are you having a laugh? That is complete bollox.

Wrote this some months ago for another chat group :

I know some of you may feel you have worn it out but I thought I would throw in my pennies worth.

30 years ago my wife was a young Physeder at Abbeydale Grange Grammar School in Sheffield, England. (showing our age here!!)

Near neighbours of her parents were a Family called Coe.

Yep ! Same Guy. That year (1973) Sebastian won the England Schools 3k.

(8:40). The kid was running a lot of Miles along the Rivelin road and in Graves Park at the time. Her words were "He seemed to be running all the time".

He ran for Hallamshire harriers and put in what would be similar mileages that a lot of good 16 year old kids did/do here.

She would agree that his mileage would have been nearer 50 miles a week when he was 16. As he did a lot of his training with a member of the Staff at the School (Ian Hague).

Some of this is in his book 'Running Free'

I also remember a situation in later years when Coe was at Loughborough. One day he was late for training and took a look at his watch.

He commented "Damn, I've only got 35 minutes. That means 7 miles"

So the Intensity of his Aerobic miles was probably 80% if not more.

I think a lot of Coe's Training has like much of Arthur's ideas it has been misinterpreted.

I believe he did a lot more mileage than has been documented.

Coe fan wrote:

flamboyant wrote:

And yes, qualifying at modern major games is harder than 20 years ago... I wish I could find a link to the LA and Sidney qualifying rounds to prove my point though...

Are you having a laugh? That is complete bollox.

Find me a link to the heats & finals results in Sidney and LA, then we can talk...

I read with very much attention all the discussions about the mileage of Seb Coe. As in letsrun many times there are questions about the mileage (expecially for marathon), I think that is better to weigh up the real mean of mileage in a global project of training.

When we speak about Coe, we refer the mileage to the final part of his career : IS THE MILEAGE OF A MATURE ATHLETE, AT THE TOP OF HIS CAREER.

But the real problem is : how much was the mileage and, better, what was the system of training when he was very young, in other words, how did he build his "aerobic house" ?

Every man needs from 10 to 12 years for building his "aerobic house". If you are Gebre, your house may be a skyscraper 60 floors high ; if you are a non talented amateur, may be a small house of only 2 floors. But, in any case, you need more than 10 years for changing your attitudes, your physiology, your mind. After this period (I repeat, 10-12 years), also if you don't train more with big volume you don't lose your qualities, that are CONSOLIDATED.

When you arrive at that level, the best road is to reduce the volume of general training (that cannot give you any advantage, but can increase the wear and tear of your body and the risk of some injury) having the focus of improving yet a little in the volume of "specific training".

For example, speaking about a marathon runner, if you want to build your base for a big future race, and you are 18y old, you can increase your weekly mileage (connected with "general training") in this way (attention, is only an example) :

18 years : 60 miles (80% general + 20% specific)

19 years : 70 miles (80% + 20%)

20 years : 80 miles (80% + 20%)

21 years : 100 miles (75% + 25%)

22 years : 120 miles (75% + 25%)

23 years : 140 miles (75% + 25%)

24 years : 140 miles (70% + 30%)

25 years : 150 miles (70% + 30%)

26 years : 150 miles (65% + 35%)

27 years : 150 miles (60% + 40%)

28 years : 160 miles (60% + 40%)

29 years : 150 miles (55% + 45%)

30 years : 140 miles (50% + 50%)

32 years : 120 miles (40% + 60%)

35 years : 80 miles (20% + 80%)

After the period used for consolidating the change in your physiology, you can reduce the general volume, using also other type of training (swimming, cross skiing, cycling ecc.) for keeping your basic aerobic condition.

So, the problem is not to know the mileage of THE LAST COE, but what he did when was young. For example (but English people on this site can know better than me), I know that 30 years ago in the schools, in GBR, there were races of 10 miles on road almost every week during winter (that now are cancelled, and results are under the eyes of everyone), and Seb used run those races.

He began his international career winning 1500m (not 800) in European Junior Ch., like Cram (winner of 3000 in Bydgoszcz '79), Aouita (WCCCh in juniors '78), Bucher (WCCCh in juniors '95, year when he ran 30:40 in 10000 and 9:09 in steeple), because his origin was from long run, also if always he used very much training for strenght and speed. But, remember, running long distance doesn't mean not to train speed and strenght. You don't train speed and strenght when you don't use speed and strenght, not when you run long distance BUT CONTINUE TO TRAIN SPEED AND STRENGHT TOO.

The example of the last period before winning OG in LA '84 is not correct : all the athletes, in every event, during the final period use a "tapering" in training that makes these periods completely different from the normal period of big training out of competitions.

We must look at the period good for putting hay in the farm, not at the period during which you use this hay.

I want only remember two days of Seb in the Italian National Training Centre in Tirrenia in 1989 (together with his friend Wirz, Swiss Record Holder of 1500m) :

the first day, I personally followed both the athletes for 30 km on the road (driving the van of the center), at a pace from 3:40 to 3:20. The second day, they went for a terrific session of gym lasting 2 hours, without any period of rest, using circuits and exercises involving all the muscle districts.

So, in the project of Seb there was every thing. But, believe me, is very different running 30 km fast in one day, with 10 km easy the day before, a great session of gym the day after and speed the next day (50 km in 4 days for an average of less than 13 km per day), or really 13 km per day always. The average is the same, the effects completely different.

So, don't discuss too much about mileage, but about MILEAGE in INTENSITY. This is the secret for running fast, but the real problem is HOW TO DO FOR BEING ABLE TO TRAIN IN THIS WAY.

Renato,

Thanks for your post... Why do you think modern runners tend to do more (in terms of mileage) than Seb Coe did?

Just for the record, I agree with everything that Martin has said on this topic.

As do I Toro, as do I.

Thanks Renato. And if I may, part of Renato?s point is: if you look at Coe?s whole training picture, he trained REALLY hard. But was he lying about his mileage totals as all the Coe doubters here seem to think?? No, not necessarily. You might see him pound out an 18 miler one day, and a great speed session 2 days later, but then there was a gym day, and an easy day, or maybe an all-out 10k day. But in the end, the miles average out to pretty low #?s, as Renato said, maybe 6.5 a day in the most part. That would be like 45 a week. So people, don?t be soooooo sure of yourselves that you have figured out the Coe myth. The myth is becoming: Seb ran upwards of 100 miles a week, like ALL great milers must. That type of thinking is just so flawed. There are many ways to skin a cat. And Coes? focus much of his career was the 800.

Back to specific log questions:

oldguy, I agree that that particular week looks suspect. But most other weeks do not IMHO. Looks like the Coe?s did not count some of the easy jogging during that week. But why on earth would think the below week you quoted would be "50,60, or 70 " miles is BEYOND me. Yeah, everyone who has ever lived does 5 mile warm-up and warm-downs before each and every run. WHAT??? That is just not the case. AND,,,,you misquoted the book. If a week is SEVEN days, then, the 14KM day, though included in the sample week, would be from a pervious week really. Let?s EXAMINE the #?s.:

"Here's a sample week from Seb Coe's training at age 16:

14-km cross-country running- that?s from previous week

1. rest day

2. (7 x 800 m) =3.5. with warm-ups and warm-downs, maybe some jogging in between, that?s 6 miles

3. (10 x 400 m) =2.5, with same add-ins from above, that?s 5

4. a.m. 8 km = 5

p.m. (5 x 200 m) + (2 x 300 m) + (3 x 100 m) = 1900 meters. Now remember, many young athletes (and older too) take standing rests between intervals, or walking between sets. So, the Coes did not NEED to calculate any more than 1900m here. But again, I will add a little in, to get to 3k total for workout. Mile warm-up, mile warm-down, you got 4 miles for PM. Total for day = 9.

5. (you left this out)- 30 x 100m hill, jog back recovery. That?s 6k =3.7

6. 1500-m heats = 1 mile. Warm-up, down. 3 miles.

7. 1,500-m final (first, in 3:55 with last 300 m in 42. Same as above. 3 miles.

So, with all that, including me adding in EASY jogging, and some warm-ups and warm-downs (and there is no way to say absolutely that he did lots of jogging for WU?s and WD?s, some athletes warm-up with sprints, or plyos, or active stretching, not just lots of jogging) we have: 29.7 miles for the week. So fine, it was not 17 like they listed. But believe it or not, most of the weeks in the book that I did this type of examination on, the Coe?s mileage #?s tied out pretty well. SO maybe this was more an anomaly, than the rule for them. And remember, since everyone seems most concerned with Seb?s BASE miles, during base periods, where there is less warm-ing up and warming down, and no jog intervals between sets, then?..the #?s they would write down would be less open for interpretation. 50 miles of steady runs would be 50 miles of steady runs. When Peter Coe says: " I don?t think really easy jogging counts," is he saying: ?Seb ran lots of really slow easy miles and we did not count them?, OR, is he saying: ?easy slow jogging was a waste of time in my mind, so Seb did not bother much with it? ?? Likely the latter in my mind.

Most of the quotes given on Seb?s AVERAGE WEEKLY BASE Miles is between 40-60. If you want to call that 60-70, fine. It?s still on the low side, and not hugely different from what they say he did.

"But in the end, the miles average out to pretty low #?s, as Renato said, maybe 6.5 a day in the most part"

Renato mentions 13K, which is more like 8.5M

"The myth is becoming: Seb ran upwards of 100 miles a week, like ALL great milers must."

I haven't seen that figure mentionned once on this thread...

"Most of the quotes given on Seb?s AVERAGE WEEKLY BASE Miles is between 40-60. If you want to call that 60-70, fine. It?s still on the low side, and not hugely different from what they say he did."

That does certainly sound more reasonable to me...

You're right. I left out the thirty-rep hill workout. As for Peter Coe's use of both seven-day weeks and eight-day "weeks," we can only speculate.

It's clear that Peter Coe, in reporting Seb's running mileage, didn't include much that others include in running mileage. I, for one, am not suggesting that he was being dishonest. But I do think that one effect of this has been to exaggerate the differences in training volume among top runners. I recall that Bill Bowerman, after talking with Seb about his training, concluded that it really wasn't that much different from the Lydiard-based training that others were doing.

The Coes, of course, are not alone in contributing to a certain low-mileage mythology. Kip Keino used to talk about ridiculously low training volume, which apparently also did not include his lower-intensity mileage throughout the week. Aouita claimed to run only about fifty miles a week, and claimed to have never run continuously for more than fifteen kilometers. (A Moroccan friend of mine, who trained with Aouita, has told me that this was false, and that their training included long, hard runs of up to three hours.) Offhand, I can think of a number of other Olympic champions and world-record holders who systematically underreported their training mileage.

I've long noticed that, while slower runners almost invariably overestimate their weekly mileage, top-level runners often underestimate it. There may be a lesson in that. In fact, when I discovered that a certain American runner of some note was including cross-training in his weekly mileage totals, I immediately discounted his chances for future success.