The death of aerobic training?

Charlie Francis is a sprint coach.

u r wronger wrote:

Charlie Francis is a sprint coach.

and sprinters aren't track athletes??? What's your point?

Alan wrote, "I'm williing to bet $100 he wasn't talking about track and field athletes or distance runners." You admit Boyle was not talking about distance runners. Therefore, Alan is technically correct. Semantics, yes, but he was right. Please make out your $100 check to "Runningart2004, c/o letsrun.com." Thanks.

Track and field athletes OR distance runners. Note the OR.

Because of the OR, alan's statement is that both of the following are true:

I'm williing to bet $100 he wasn't talking about track and field athletes.

I'm williing to bet $100 he wasn't talking about distance runners.

He wasn't talking about distance runners. He was talking about track and field athletes (sprinters).

Therefore Alan loses because he claimed that he was not talking about either of the two groups. He was talking about at least one.

yahhhhh wrote:

Track and field athletes OR distance runners. Note the OR.

Because of the OR, alan's statement is that both of the following are true:

I'm williing to bet $100 he wasn't talking about track and field athletes.

I'm williing to bet $100 he wasn't talking about distance runners.

Incorrect. "Or" implies at least one is true.

runningart, I felt sick after I did 5 min warm up; 8 x 30sec/w90sec rest, no warm down

yahhhh wrote:

and that's taken from Magness' take on it:

http://stevemagness.blogspot.com/

White fast twitch fibers can't convert to FTA that's bullshit.

You didn't answer my question wellnow.

How do you know Usain Bolt does 1000m repeats?

weIInow wrote:

yahhhh wrote:

and that's taken from Magness' take on it:

http://stevemagness.blogspot.com/

White fast twitch fibers can't convert to FTA that's bullshit.

you might want to do some research...

here's one I found with a quick search:

It says:Six fiber types (I, IC, IIC, IIA, IIAB, and IIB) were classified using myofibrillar ATPase histochemistry.

That's how they classified the fiber types, they can also be classified according to myosin expression.

But white fibers can't change into red fibers in which category are fast oxidative, that is impossible.

And I forgot to mention that mitosis confligration confirms this. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about physiology and the Knifling relationship would know that.

Danny Komen wrote:

You didn't answer my question wellnow.

How do you know Usain Bolt does 1000m repeats?

That information came from British sprinter Simeon Williamson who trains with Bolt and Powell.

Figured I'd answer this one.

It's not impossible. It's just pretty much impossible to test.

I used fiber type classification loosely in my blog because it's a blog. In reality there isn't a FT-b in humans, but I don't like to complicate things when that's not the point.

If we simplify things to just 3 basic fiber types for this discussion, here you go:

The point is that conversion from FT glycolytic to FT oxidative is relatively easy and can occur in a short term. Converting from FT-a to ST, or in terms you are using converting FT to ST or white to red takes a long freaking time.

It's almost impossible to demonstrate. There are studies that look at long term training in elites that show fiber type proportion changes when compared maybe 5 years apart.

How did these changes occur? Well that's impossible to test in humans.

However, if you look at animal models, FT to ST conversion DOES occur. It just takes a crapload of training/damage to the muscle. But it has been done, numerous times. In rats, mice, and rabbits.

Just because we can't prove it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

-It happens in animal models.

-Long term studies show that in young (20s) elite endurance athletes the amount of ST fibers increase and FT decrease when compared 5+years apart or so. So, since they are young, aging wouldn't be the cause.

-Lastly, the default state of a fiber is FT. Chop the motor neuron off and that's what you get. So at some point during development you had to get some FT becoming ST.

-One more point, you'd have to believe that all endurance athletes self selected their sport, even the crappy endurance athletes.

White to red occurs.

weIInow wrote:

And I forgot to mention that mitosis confligration confirms this. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about physiology and the Knifling relationship would know that.

Is this John Kellog trolling again?

Steve, white fibers cannot convert to red fibers.

Do a search on on pubmed for Fast to Slow conversion.

You'll get all kinds of animal studies showing white to red conversion.

If you want a good review, look for an article by Pette.

As I said, it can be tested in animals. Much harder to test in humans.

It's similar to hyperplascia. You'll get all sorts of people who say it does not happen. It happens in animals. The theory hold up. It can never be proven in humans because it is impossible to test for (unless someone finds a way to take out an entire muscle and put it back in...any volunteers want to donate their entire calf muscle??

I'd like to see the "white can't be converted to red" crowd cite something definitive from human studies. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, so the possibility has to remain open.

My gosh - we just discovered evidence of "brown fat" in adult humans in the last couple of years. I mean after centuries of modern medical research, it took until the last couple of years to discover something as "simple" as that? I think I'll stay open to the possibility of hyperplascia and white to red conversions.

A. Nonymous wrote:

HAHAHAHAHAHA

A is A wrote:

Laugh at yourself. You really think Jamaica is such a wellspring of intellectual achievement that the coaches there are able to use their superior minds to devise superior training programs that nobody else can figure out?

Dude, come on. Really?

No one's saying Jamaicans aren't talented. Threre's obviously quite a bit of talent on that little island.

BUT, making some tired-ass genetics argument that excludes all other elements of success is too simple. And as always, such an argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Hell, this one question alone can complicate your argument, "Why didn't Jamaica dominate sprinting during the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's?" If Jamaicans really are genetically superior to everyone, they should have been dominating the sprints for decades.

Jamaica's clearly had international success at the sprints since they started competing. But they weren't controlling sprint events like they are now. Take a look:

In less than a decade they've almost equalled their medal count from the previous century. Genetics doesn't account for that. Something cultural does. Maybe it's training. Maybe it's drugs (some of the no names have been using, have any of the big names been using?). But, it is something that's changed in their athletic culture.

The Great 5:04.73 Miler wrote:

runningart, I felt sick after I did 5 min warm up; 8 x 30sec/w90sec rest, no warm down

Welcome to a real workout...:)

Yeah, for most people the warm down is rolling on the ground.

Also...I fumbled. When I said "track athlete" I should have just said "distance runner". Sprinters, throwers, jumpers, hurdlers, also shouldn't do much if any aerobic training....400m is a maybe. As always, it's all individually based. If you have someone who can run a 10.x 100m but can't break :50 in the quarter then he has some serious endurance issues. Likewise, if you have someone who runs sub 50 in the quarter but can't break 12 in the 100m then he has some speed issues (might be a bad example, but you get my drift).

End: If prolonged cyclic aerobic activity (running, cycling, skiing, long distance speed skating) is part of your sport, well then you NEED to do prolonged aerobic activity as a mainstay of your problem. If not? Then likely don't need it unless you're an outlier.

Alan