Young Phenom Runners Explained

TGMCP,

Great thread--I appreciate your enthusiasm and curiosity about the sport and the pursuit of the best, developmentally appropriate training for your kids.

I've been a head boys and girls CC and distance track coach for 15 years, working with kids in 7th-12th grade. During that time, I've learned a few things about how young kids respond to training that I believe could help you.

First, carefully read and take to heart CoachB's suggestions. The evolution of our training program and the experience and success of our runners validate his advice about training.

Secondly, use DRF. It's a great primer. Be guided by the general principles he outlines but avoid following the schedules in the back of the book too closely. Especially with young runners. The vDot rating to determine intensities, his advice about % of weekly mileage at different intensities,and the basic framework with 4 training phases are all great.

HOWEVER, be careful with the schedules. They aren't appropriate for young runners because 1. they include way too much I pace running (like coachB we've discovered that racing through the comp. phase takes care of this)2. they are too rigid--a seven day cycle with the same workouts on the same days each week yields flat racing and early season plateaus. 3. the balance of the 4 phases isn't developmentally appropriate for younger runners (training age 1-4)who need more time in phases 1 and 2 to develop aerobic efficiency and strength 4. The total volume suggested for I and R workouts (8% and 5% of weekly milage respectively)is too high for most young runners 5. Young runners need more easy and steady state running before and after the Quality days and races. In other words, the 3 quality days of a DRF phase 3 week should be stretched across 10 days to 2 weeks for a 12-14 yr old kid new to the sport.

We discovered that the schedule were too compressed, dense, and repetitive for most young runners. We have much better results now that we focus on long term aerobic and strength development, limit and carefully monitor race specific training sessions, and open up the training to allow for recovery before and after Quality sessions and races.

I think the way you're handling your kids' training is outstanding--it's intelligent and thoughtful and they're having fun. I also think consistency and structure is great, but it has to be appropriate.

Hope this helps.

I agree. Each young athlete should be viewed individually.

What works for one, might not work for another. Heck, both my daughter and son are very different types of athletes, and I treat them as such.

Whatever process they go through, I think the best barometer of success will be if they still have a love of sport ten or fifteen years from now.

Another thought about the VDOT tables and the training paces I and R.

Most young runners have speed that is far more developed than the VDOT tables would predict based on race times. For instance. We had our first workout of the track season yesterday and did not have one boy who struggled to run 200s in the 40-42 range. However, most of these boys would not be able to go out and run a mile in under 5:36 (42 per 200) right now. The same is true for I pace. Younger runners tend to be able to outperform the VDOT tables here too.

I interpret this to mean that these kids' aeroic systems simply are not that developed yet.

The way I see it, with young runners, if you use on a small amount of R pace and I pace while placing the main emphasis on E pace and M pace (and to a lesser extent T pace work), you will have much better success and kids who race much more consistantly.

CoachB,

You're right on the money about young runners and developed speed. My daughter is running 2:30 800 meter races and has a 1:03 400 meter pb, but her best 3k

x-country time is 12:20.

Curious as to what you'd recommend for her summer running, if she was running 3x a week, maybe 4x in the latter part of the summer. Most likeley three milers on the grass or on the trails. Might up one of the runs to a four miler once a week in August, since USATF x-country distance for her age group this fall is 4K. "M" pace twice a week? What pace would that be for her, 6:55?

Her aerobic base needs development, but she's not ready to run five or six days a week.

Thanks.

gmcc

Appreciated advice, thanks. Re. CoachB's advice, I'm already modifying the raining around some of his ideas. To avoid any confusion, I withdrew my kids from club coaching because it was awful, not because I knew much at all. I did know that I'd make it fun, not have them compete in training, not suffer jealousy from beaten peers and that I'd make it safe, no injurious, organised. There was ZERO instruction, no technique work, no short, medium or long term plan, nothing said to the athletes; it was simply, e.g., "Run 10 x 200 with 1 minute rest." No feedback.

While aware of the long term goals, I believe that "success breeds confidence, enthusiasm and enjoyment." One way of keeping kids in sport is, I believe to give them success--all kids can be given "success" if success is "constant improvement". We have the balance correct for us--improvement is what they want and what they respect. (I think I'm trying hard to make it clear that I am not arrogant or dogmatic. Apologies for being apologetic :-))

Your synopsis of DRF is excellent. Your succinct distillation of the theory through your experience has given me confidence that my hope that I had found some good guidane in a book was justified. I save all the advice from this thread in a doc. file, your just added.

#1 daughter:

got serious about training Nov. 2008, 12 weeks solid aerobic cycling (Lance Armstrong program)

After doing odd aerobic runs (2 a week maybe) since 8 yrs old, she started running in Feb 2009 with my wife, on the road. She felt so good, she started doing bricks, e.g., 10 - 12 miles on road bike, then a 3 - 4 mile run. SHE LOVED THE BRICKS.

Feb 2010: loved the cycling and running so much, she started swiming 3 x wk in addition.

Planned to do triathlon in summer 2009, but, after being chucked into a school 1500, and winning it, then an inter school 800, and winning it, wanted to join a track club.

Late June - early August: club track training, constant competition, hated the spite and jealousy when she had sorely wanted a social atmosphere--friends. Basically, she was good enough to beat top 10 800 runners with training ages of 2 - 4 years, but lacked the psychology, base aerobic conditioning, etc. to sustain it mentally and emotionally. BLUE LIPS DETERMINATION--i.e., dangerous. I withdrew her quickly to avoid complete burnout--this with 2 months start to end of club coaching.

Since withdrawing her, we've seen massive improvements in her times, no blue lips, major inroads into her psychology and a committment to improve that would daunt Seb Coe. (Although 12 yrs old, intellectually she off the scale and can quite maturely analyze herself. She knows more than I do about the science of this endeavour, the psycholgy, etc.)

ISSUE with #1: her raw speed, say over 800, is more advanced than her endurance/stamina (not really sure of the difference). Focusing on positive splits occurs as possibly good training? (She thrives on intervals though: regularly hits 3:37 - 3:42 in 5 x 1000 w/ 1 min rec. Feels easy around 35 secs doing 200 reps. Goes out too fast on first 400 in an 800 (although this was June - Aug 2009 before I started training her.) Haven't done many time trials as because she hadn't completed even a full season of training according to DRF, I didn't think it necessary or wise. Have done some 1000s since and she sub-2:30 for the 800 within a fast 1000. 5:12s - 5:16s on the 1500. So it seems to be going ok, but I'm still seeing the "too fast out, slowing in the last quarter" syndrome. Any advice appreciated from everyone on this point--what, on this scanty information, would be the best area and way to train?

My tiny daughter, #3, is very different from #1. She joined in with #1s group in June 2009--basically running intervals and reps with girls 4 years older, all top 20 Nationals. She loved it, "frightened them from behind!" Always first to the line for the next rep or interval. Didn't care a jot about being half the height or age. Wanted to do bricks with #1. Started skipping/jumping rope to music just because she liked it, and she wanted to do what #1 was doing (I boxed for two Universities, so enjoy the rope). She loves competing--at anything! I DO reign her in, ban her from sessions, but she'll just do something else (cycle up the mountain, play TT in the house). She is confident, competitive, absolutely loves laying herself on the line, etc., etc.

ISSUE WITH #3: what is the best way to proceed? E.g., she won her cross country race yesterday, against kids 1, 2 & 3 years older (she shouldn't have been in the race). She has 7 - 8 months before she'll be eligible for school CCs. She did club coaching for 4 months, sprinting group (good coach with a #1 national champion daughter at 100s and 200s who 'big-sistered' my kid and brought her on a treat. Phenomenal leg speed and endurance over the 200, found the gears on the 100. Also did some 1200 TTs too (she wanted too!!!) and did 5:22. She's 4 foot 1 inch small and very light--skin, bone and muscle. Strength to weight ratio is frightening. I want to maintain her speed, think it's way too early to do any interval or tempo work and feel incline to just do aerobic runs and sprints? (Tonight she did 3.5 miles in one of our fields which is surrounded by mountains and streams--invigorating scenery. Roughly 9:20 pace, talking to #1, #2 (my son) and me all the way. She's so slight, I'm wary of even succumbing to her demands to do even this, but she just seems to thrive on everything we give. On her CC yesterday, she sprinted the last 500 metres and a phenomenal pace, such was her desire for that gold medal. Before she started sprinting, she was a good 100 metres ahead of the nearest 11 yrs old girl--there was no competition, but she still flew as if the devil was after her.

CoachB wrote:

...if you use on a small amount of R pace and I pace while placing the main emphasis on E pace and M pace (and to a lesser extent T pace work), you will have much better success and kids who race much more consistantly.

I think CoachB has answered my issue above with #1? That guy should be charging for this tuition! Ye don't even need to ask the questions, he just posts solutions to the issues ye havnae even posted yet!

Wary of completly dumping how we had planned to prepare for #1s 3 CCs in consecutive Saturdays, we've been modifying the program a bit. Tonight, after a tought session on Tuesday, 30 min recovery cycle last night, #1 did 30 min easy run on grass with 5 x 50 m strides. She looked very fresh, super fast on the strides. Then into 2 x 450s and 2 x 200s, again looking zippy on the 450s and blistering the 200s. After the 3 races, we'' emphasise the SS and aerobic pace runs, tone down the quantity of reps and intervals--this is accord with both CoachB and gmcc's advice.

Just had another thought:

I'm corresponding with another guy who has a 13yr old son with amazing endurance at lower speeds (M pace). 5 x 5Ks w/ 400 jog recoveries at 6:20 pace. He's suggesting that as soon as his son goes above M pace, he's uncomfortable.

Is this the opposite problem/issue to that of my #1 girl?

I know the father reads these threads when he has time--maybe he'll chip in?

5 x 5k? Really? 25k worth of training in one session for a 13 year old?

I'd suggest that if you want to talk about your own kids on a public forum message board then fine (although I'm not sure what good you think will come from it), but please resist talking about other peoples kids on message boards, especially without consent from that person. I'm sure that you and that kids Dad won't be exchanging e-mail much any more when you go around repeating what he said in confidence on message boards.

As MPR has done, this conversation can be held without talking about specific kids.

Which is precisely why I did not mention any names, HAVE informed the father and hoped he'd contribute here to generate more discussion. I have had a great conversation with the father today on Facebook--a knowledgeable man with sound ideas and experience with his own child. This board is about child athletic development--I only mention my kids to afford readers an opportunity to contribute advice, knowledge and experience, real-life test subjects if you will. The other father has nurtured his child's talent incredibly well. It was therefore a valid post that broke no confidences at all. (In fact, on other threads, the father has already posted the exact same information about his child.)

I understand the motivation for your post, but, with respect, it was written without knowledge of the above.

TGMCP wrote:

I'm corresponding with another guy who has a 13yr old son with amazing endurance at lower speeds (M pace). 5 x 5Ks w/ 400 jog recoveries at 6:20 pace. He's suggesting that as soon as his son goes above M pace, he's uncomfortable.

TGMCP - few errors here:

1) 3 x 5km NOT 5 - that would be way too much!

2) 6:30 pace, not 6:20

No big deal, but nice to get the facts straight.

He runs, he enjoys it, he has done hardly any intense or specific training over the years. This is his first year of consistent structured training. He has now gotten 6+ years of running under his belt (5000+ miles) and has learnt good technique naturally and has learnt to enjoy running easily in the countryside. And he loves to race. And now *he* has decided he wants to be very good and *he* is motivated to do whatever it takes. So we are helping him along as best we can. The harder work has begun.

I always would err on the side of relaxed low-intensity aerobic conditioning in the early years. With maybe some alactic sprints in an enjoyable form. Plenty of time for the VO2 max to catch up!

TGMCP wrote:

CoachB wrote:

...if you use on a small amount of R pace and I pace while placing the main emphasis on E pace and M pace (and to a lesser extent T pace work), you will have much better success and kids who race much more consistantly.

I think CoachB has answered my issue above with #1? That guy should be charging for this tuition! Ye don't even need to ask the questions, he just posts solutions to the issues ye havnae even posted yet!

.

You have my e-mail address, perhaps if I send you my real address, the checks will start rolling in? ;)

Sounds to me like the 13 year old boy that runs 3 x 5k would be natural candidate for being introduced to a small amount of R pace work. Bear in mind, keep the volume low, the reps short, and the rest long to begin with. You will be after biomechanics and the ability to "feel comfortable" at faster paces.

CoachB wrote:

Sounds to me like the 13 year old boy that runs 3 x 5k would be natural candidate for being introduced to a small amount of R pace work. Bear in mind, keep the volume low, the reps short, and the rest long to begin with. You will be after biomechanics and the ability to "feel comfortable" at faster paces.

I agree wholeheartedly, CoachB. We're almost done with the AeT focus now; he'll be doing AnT (and slightly faster) work more now. The speed work proper is after that. But, yes to low volume, yes to high recovery, and yes to the purpose stated too.

[quote]CoachB wrote:

You have my e-mail address, perhaps if I send you my real address, the checks will start rolling in? ;)

I've packaged up #3 girl, Fed EXing her over in lieu of a cheque--please return in 10 yrs with medals around her neck.

PS: I emailed you back, both addresses, yesterday.

#1 girl racing tomorrow. Following your advice, we've swapped the usual Tuesday Q1 Int. session with tomorrows race. Also did 30 mins tonight after toned down speed session last night: again 30 mins, with 4 x 50 m light, floating strides within the E run, then 4 x 20 m surges within the run. She's looking sharp, feeling good, eager to get on tomorrow. Will w/u, drills before race, 3K CC, then do some reps afterwards, finish with w/d E run and stretch. 1 hr long run/fartlek//SS portion on Sunday, rest Monday.

To FATHER OF THE FLYING SON: thanks for clarifying the info.

WOW, not really sure if I care that it is 3 or 5 X 5k at 6:30 or 6:20 pace. That is way too much for a 13 year old. Yes, he may like it, and it is rewarding to complete a workout like that, but he doesn't need it. Any benefit he gets from that kind of training does not translate into very much when you consider the type of races he will run. High school run 5k for cross country and only up to 3200 on the track. He is five years from finishing high school. Give him more time to run long and slow to really develop a good "lifetime" base. Maybe run 3 X 1600, and it could be somewhat faster, but ease up on the training a little. There is relatively little to no benefit at this time to train like that.

My son referred to wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly, CoachB. We're almost done with the AeT focus now; he'll be doing AnT (and slightly faster) work more now. The speed work proper is after that. But, yes to low volume, yes to high recovery, and yes to the purpose stated too.

It's never too early to start introducing some speed. Even if the speed is in the form of easy stride outs after an easy run. I've never really liked the pure, Lydiard style periodization. I think you need to work in all of the rooms of your house all the time. However, depending on the focus, you will be spending more time in certain rooms.

scottdye wrote:

WOW, not really sure if I care that it is 3 or 5 X 5k at 6:30 or 6:20 pace. That is way too much for a 13 year old. Yes, he may like it, and it is rewarding to complete a workout like that, but he doesn't need it. .

This was my initial reaction as well. 3 x 5k at tempo pace is a hell of a workout, even for a pro. The boy's training age is 6 years, so that is something to consider. Also, I don't know if he is actually running the 5ks at a true tempo pace. If the pace was more of a steady effort, the workout would seem hard, but a bit more realistic.

What is truly important is how the boy feels in doing the training. When I say this, I mean that as a coach, I would look for all the indicators of how the boy is handling said workouts. The boy that I've indicated above, who ran a 17:03 cross country 5k in his first season, is always telling me he can handle more. He may, in fact, be able to. As his coach, I feel that I need to help him balance all of the aspects of his training, school, and extracurricular activities. Every time he takes on another activity, I tell him we will scale back his training. The kid hates it, he is super type A personality, and seems to think that no aspect of the school can function without him, but he has already had a bout of plantar fasciaits in 8th grade. His mileage has probably quadrupled in the 9 months since his 8th grade season, but his injury has not returned.

scottdye wrote:

WOW, not really sure if I care that it is 3 or 5 X 5k at 6:30 or 6:20 pace. That is way too much for a 13 year old. Yes, he may like it, and it is rewarding to complete a workout like that, but he doesn't need it. Any benefit he gets from that kind of training does not translate into very much when you consider the type of races he will run. High school run 5k for cross country and only up to 3200 on the track. He is five years from finishing high school. Give him more time to run long and slow to really develop a good "lifetime" base. Maybe run 3 X 1600, and it could be somewhat faster, but ease up on the training a little. There is relatively little to no benefit at this time to train like that.

So every one who likes to run long distances has to cater to the high school system? Are you not allowed to run in high school unless you compete for your school team and at its choosen distances? Last I remember this is a free nation and that kid or any kid can run what ever distance he wants to and doesn't have to worry about what some guy on the message board thinks is crazy.

Maybe, just maybe, a kid wants to go to school for the education and keeps his running seperate from that. He can run in road races and open meets if he wants and never even have to stick one foot on a track and the "system" if he doesn't want to. And you know what, that is perfectly OK to do.