And finally, my personal question to Mr. Canova: What happened in the whole Africa in the winter of 1995-96? Can you illuminate it to me, please? What a secret training method arrived to Africa that the times of Africans - from Morocco to Kenya - suddenly exploded in a way unseen before? I suppose you must be very familiar with African runners, so I want this mystery be finally resolved.
Of course, if you have a so radicated stupid idea, is not possible to change, because you don't have an open mind, but you live in a word of suspicion that, probably, makes you not happy.
In any case, I want to explain what happened AFTER 1995 (but I went to kenya only in 1998).
Before that period, there were no managers organising in Kenya training and activity for the athletes, everything was casual. The strong athletes were alone in training, sometimes were able to run very fast, but they didn't know WHY, so they didn't know when they were not in shape. When the managers (without any local control) went in touch with their athletes, offering some competition, the athletes ALWAYS were ready, also if not in training during the last 3 months....
So, the first step was an improvement in the idea of PROFESSIONALISM.
I can speak, for example, about the case of my first World Champion, Christopher Koskei, elder brother of Shaheen. I went in Kenya in October 1998, together with Gianni Demadonna (at that time I was the Technical Scientific Director of Italian federation), that had broken his relation with Rosa some time before.
I met Christopher, coming from a seasonal best of...8'48" !
He asked help. I seated with hiom asking him "do you want to be an athlete or a Kenyan?", and he asked me "what does it mean ?". I explained that, for recovering, he needed CONTINUITY, exactly what a kenyan NEVER had. Secondly, an athlete already second in the world (1995) if wanted to come to me, needed to have the goal to become number 1, not number 5. He accepted, was very serious in training for 9 months, won WCh in Seville and, after, quitted every type of training without any reason. That's the old Kenya.
I don't believe that for these type of athletes EPO or CERA can work.
May be that I'm an ingenuous and stupid moron, and you, like many other readers of letsrun, a scientist looking for the Nobel Award for biochemical.
Probably, for coaching world record holders, we need to be stupid morons without any culture, and not top scientists, working where the Science has nothing to do.
Canova Renato wrote:
Of course, if you have a so radicated stupid idea, is not possible to change, because you don't have an open mind, but you live in a word of suspicion that, probably, makes you not happy.
In any case, I want to explain what happened AFTER 1995 (but I went to kenya only in 1998).
Before that period, there were no managers organising in Kenya training and activity for the athletes, everything was casual. The strong athletes were alone in training, sometimes were able to run very fast, but they didn't know WHY, so they didn't know when they were not in shape. When the managers (without any local control) went in touch with their athletes, offering some competition, the athletes ALWAYS were ready, also if not in training during the last 3 months....
So, the first step was an improvement in the idea of PROFESSIONALISM.
I can speak, for example, about the case of my first World Champion, Christopher Koskei, elder brother of Shaheen. I went in Kenya in October 1998, together with Gianni Demadonna (at that time I was the Technical Scientific Director of Italian federation), that had broken his relation with Rosa some time before.
I met Christopher, coming from a seasonal best of...8'48" !
He asked help. I seated with hiom asking him "do you want to be an athlete or a Kenyan?", and he asked me "what does it mean ?". I explained that, for recovering, he needed CONTINUITY, exactly what a kenyan NEVER had. Secondly, an athlete already second in the world (1995) if wanted to come to me, needed to have the goal to become number 1, not number 5. He accepted, was very serious in training for 9 months, won WCh in Seville and, after, quitted every type of training without any reason. That's the old Kenya.
I don't believe that for these type of athletes EPO or CERA can work.
May be that I'm an ingenuous and stupid moron, and you, like many other readers of letsrun, a scientist looking for the Nobel Award for biochemical.
Probably, for coaching world record holders, we need to be stupid morons without any culture, and not top scientists, working where the Science has nothing to do.
POD!
Excuse ignorance, but what does "POD" stand for?
Well - here is at least one c class kenyan taking EPO
grand slam wrote:
Excuse ignorance, but what does "POD" stand for?
Post Of the Day
paid on death
prince of darkness
pussy over dick
pictures of dikes
Canova Renato wrote:
I don't believe that for these type of athletes EPO or CERA can work.
Statements like this from a world class coach rubs me the wrong way because I find it very hard to believe that someone in his position could really be that ignorant.
orange juice wrote:
Canova Renato wrote:I don't believe that for these type of athletes EPO or CERA can work.
Statements like this from a world class coach rubs me the wrong way because I find it very hard to believe that someone in his position could really be that ignorant.
It's just saying that guys like Shaheen aren't the kind of more normal humans that are involved in the testing of drugs like EPO and CERA and so you can't expect the same type of gains. Canova is saying that Shaheen ran 7:53 legitimately, so how much faster could he possibly go on EPO? Additionally, there's the placebo effect for some, while doping has had no positive effect in others, such as Cova.
"Statements like this from a world class coach rubs me the wrong way because I find it very hard to believe that someone in his position could really be that ignorant."
Maybe not ignorant, but intentionally ignorant. His explanation of Kemboi's sudden improvement is simply amusing
http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/interviews/2005/renatocanova.html
"For example, the case of Nicholas Kemboi last year [who ran 26:30 for 10,000m to take more than a minute and a half off his PR]. Already I was his coach for three years. But it was always the same — 13:26, 28:something, staying maybe some time one week here, one week in Italy. When we were together last year for practically 55 days, almost two months in Switzerland, I discovered something that I didn't know about him...I discovered he was fast."
EPO doping? No doubt. I really think that to continue in this debate is a waste of time. This guy was frustrated from the long-term stagnation of his "boys", so he inspired himself by his comrades. Having a hard time to explain the incredible improvements of his athletes, he must now pretend that he is the best coach in the world and play the game to its very end.
I am sorry, Mr. Canova, but physiological testing revealed no marked differences between Kenyans and Europeans, not even in the response to training. Hence Kenyans are as humans as everybody else. Their superior performances in the 3-10 km were always related to their better running economy resulting from a lower calf volume. So unless you cut 1 pound of meat from Kemboi's calf, the improvement you describe is impossible to occur naturally. (You don't think that I would take your fish story about "changing mind" seriously, do you?)
Yes, improvements of more than 1 minute in the 10 km within several weeks have been reported, but they always resulted from THE ARTIFICAL BOOSTING OF OXYGEN-CARRYING CAPACITY OF BLOOD. There are several methods, how to achieve it. The legal ones are: 1/ high altitude training (or at least sleeping at altitude and training at sea level), and 2/ nitrogen tents or houses.
Since you listed neither of these methods in your description of Kemboi's training explicitly (who could furthermore hardly benefit from altitude training in Switzerland, when he has lived at altitude for his whole life), I suspect you used some of the illegal ones: 1/ transfusion of inspissated blood or 2/ EPO. Am I right?
You don't have to be a scientist to google, how altitude training helps even elite athletes.
http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/altitude/wgh.html#table2
So the benefit of EPO use, whose dosage you can control, must be even more dramatic
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html
All these benefits are only temporary, lasting 3-4 months maximally (which is the lifetime of a blood cell). Hence an athlete will never get to the result again, if he is not doped again. And of course, he will never run significantly faster, if he already stagnated before.
Mr. Canova actually reveals his biggest mystery unitentionally: The dopers are regularly tested, so there is a very low probability that they would be caught.
" I went in Kenya in October 1998, together with Gianni Demadonna (at that time I was the Technical Scientific Director of Italian federation), that had broken his relation with Rosa some time before."
So we even got the name of the comrade, from which Mr. Canova had got the vials of inspiration. Thanks.
When reading these fish stories, you realize, how second-rate some of the Kenyans actually are. (They are only humans, after all.) They would never get to Europe without these EPO-docs.
I must now go to the bed. Tomorrow I will get back to the Wonder Winter 1995-96 and the alleged poor training conditions in Kenya before this time.
CzechGuy wrote:
I think the first pioneer of EPO in Africa was Yobes Ondieki in 1993. The next year, Gebreselassie and Sigei followed.
This seems to be a clear suggestion that Geb was/is an EPO user. Considering that he has improved his performances every year since 1993, only losing some kicking speed with age in the past few years, it would seem you are also inferring that Geb has used EPO for 16 years without a positive test or any circumstantial evidence.
Ridiculus, baseless, jealous, and likely racist accusations on your part CzechGuy. I'm with Renato here; track professionalism simply reached its last frontier of the African continent in the early 90's.
Well, I am coming back for a while, because when looking for "Gianni Demadonna+EPO" (quite a logical connection, what do you think?) I found this thread posted by our friend Mr. Canova:
http://www.letsrun.com/phptest/read.php?board=1&id=2380749
"Last thing, regarding tｈｅ ｄｏｐｉｎｇ ｏｆ Susan Chepkemei : she took a medicine for cough (Salbutamol) when already not in training because pregnant. The same happened to Lydia Cheromei (clomiphene) two years ago. Do you think that the rules of WADA and IAAF in these cases are correct ? Do you think that some lady goes to assume doping when pregnant, when she knows that doesnt compete for the next 2 years, may be for making a baby champion ?
This is a demonstration that, for speaking, people needs to know what that, for speaking, people needs to know the argument. Without knowing, is very easy to say stupidities, that is exactly what happens in letsrun."
You mendacious swindler, do you really think that only clueless people walk this Earth? Beta-agonists (Salbutamol, Clenbuterol) are notoriously well-profaned drug aids in sport. Grit Breuer and Katrin Krabbe also suffered from cough, didn't they? Furthermore, they are used against asthma. Not preferentially "cough". (There are no other drugs against cough available in Kenya?) And clomifene is a notoriously abused drug, too. It is an agonist of estrogens and hence can somewhat increase testosterone production.
If I still had 0.1% doubt about the rampant drug use in Kenyans, now I have definitively lost it. A massive clean-up is needed in the camps of these "best trainers of the world". I am really losing any interest in watching this epic fraud.
" it would seem you are also inferring that Geb has used EPO for 16 years without a positive test or any circumstantial evidence."
I have repeated it x-times already: Marion Jones is probably the world record holder in this area. She went through 160 doping tests as innocent.
Gebreselassie is in the group of Jos Hermens, who managed three famous cheaters in the past (Krabbe, Breuer, Sepeng). Bekele also trains with them. Bekele's brother trains with dr. Rosa and his EPO-team. Hermens' former client, Stephanie Graf, was once managed by Robert Wagner (the chief of the band of narcoleptics around Kelli White et al. and EPO-doper Jolanda Ceplak).
Am I continue further?
Chepkemei is managed by Jos Hermens. THE SAME MAN, WHO MANAGED KRABBE AND BREUER, WHEN THEY TOOK "CLENBUTEROL AGAINST COUGH"!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Chepkemei
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/drugs-in-sport-krabbes-drug-admission-1538730.html
What a surprise! Well, but it may be only a conspiracy theory. The more natural explanation is that Hermens simply forgot that two of his former clients had been busted because of the use of beta-agonists!
In defense of Canova, Salbutamol is being taken off the banned list. As it should be, because it doesnt do anything if you don't need it. Oral salbutamol can be used as a mild stimulant and fat burner but that does little good for an endurance athlete.
I think some of your points are valid. Some are way off. And unfortunately it is those way off claims that hurt your argument.
If anyone really wants to know what's going on, look at cycling. It's pretty easy to find info about how dirty cycling is. Look at the doctors who have moved on from cycling to running. Follow them and you'll follow the doping.
If you don't like innuendo, then even research studies back up your claims of the magic years of the mid 90's.
Check this study:
Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996. These extreme values provide both a health risk to the individual athlete and unfair competition. After a rule limiting hemoglobin values was introduced, the drop of the highest values was remarkable: among men 15 g/l (0.23 mmol/l) and among women 42 g/l (0.65 mmol/l). It would appear that the rule had achieved its goal of limiting extreme hemoglobin values. Yet the mean hemoglobin concentrations in men and women have continued to rise, suggesting the continued use of artificial methods to increase total hemoglobin mass.
Lastly, Canova's idea that EPO won't help makes sense in a limited theory. Because Hgb and Hct do drop in elite runners instead of increase, due to a large increase in blood volume. However, look at cycling, it works. Even in elite cyclists who should see the same thing as runners.
finally another study showing the intro of new products, which I know a few of if you want details:
Following the doping scandals at the World Championships in cross-country skiing in 2001, the International Ski Federation decided to generate individual blood profiles. From 2001 to 2007, 7081 blood samples from 1074 male and female elite cross-country skiers were collected and analyzed for hemoglobin concentration [Hb] and % reticulocytes (%rets). Data were applied to blood algorithms wherefrom blood model scores were calculated. From 1997-1999 to 2001-2002, the mean [Hb] was reduced by 0.9 g/dL to 15.3 g/dL in male skiers and by 0.4 g/dL to 13.8 in female skiers. From 2002-2003 to 2006-2007, the combination of increases in [Hb] and decreases in %rets led to pronounced increases in mean OFF-model scores. [Hb] was 0.2 g/dL higher at Olympic Games/World Championships (WOCs) than at World Cups competitions <4 weeks before and after WOCs. [Hb] and %rets increased with altitude in both genders. Since the introduction of an enlarged blood testing program, the mean [Hb] values were lowered to close to normal levels, but over the last 2-3 years there has been a small elevation and an increase in OFF-model scores, which may indicate a change in the manipulations used to elevate the [Hb].
"Oral salbutamol can be used as a mild stimulant and fat burner but that does little good for an endurance athlete."
This is why they are used in bodybuilding! And this is why they can be beneficial for an endurance athlete!
Frankly, their anabolic properties were marked only in animals. In humans, who lack the sufficient number of beta-receptors, their anabolism is very dubious. And some even doubt their alleged anti-catabolic effect.
"Hemoglobin data have been available from ski teams beginning from 1987, and from 1989 to 1999 we have followed hemoglobin values in elite cross-country skiers in international competitions. The mean values at the 1989 World Nordic Ski Championships were lower than population reference values, as would be expected from plasma volume expansion associated with endurance training. However, an increase, particularly in the maximal values, became obvious in 1994 and rose further in 1996."
I have a graph of this sort here:
http://ospage2000.ic.cz/hemoglobin.jpg
Well, but now I must really go to bed.
CzechGuy wrote:
" it would seem you are also inferring that Geb has used EPO for 16 years without a positive test or any circumstantial evidence."
I have repeated it x-times already: Marion Jones is probably the world record holder in this area. She went through 160 doping tests as innocent.
Gebreselassie is in the group of Jos Hermens, who managed three famous cheaters in the past (Krabbe, Breuer, Sepeng). Bekele also trains with them. Bekele's brother trains with dr. Rosa and his EPO-team. Hermens' former client, Stephanie Graf, was once managed by Robert Wagner (the chief of the band of narcoleptics around Kelli White et al. and EPO-doper Jolanda Ceplak).
Am I continue further?
You will have to continue further before you say anything credible. Marion Jones EPO cheating era was before the test was reliable. The test works now; cyclists are being caught every month. Krabbe and Breuer are athletes of a bygone era who Geb has likely never met. Hezekiel Sepeng is a South African 800m runner who doesn't train with or have anything to do with Geb. Same with Stephanie Graf. What is this EPO team surrounding Tarisu Bekele? Total nonsense.
a little premature wrote:
You will have to continue further before you say anything credible. Marion Jones EPO cheating era was before the test was reliable. The test works now; cyclists are being caught every month. Krabbe and Breuer are athletes of a bygone era who Geb has likely never met. Hezekiel Sepeng is a South African 800m runner who doesn't train with or have anything to do with Geb. Same with Stephanie Graf. What is this EPO team surrounding Tarisu Bekele? Total nonsense.
Right.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7516484.stmIf you have an idea about clearing times, you'd have to be very careless to get caught. How are they gonna catch anyone using low doses? It's just not gonna happen.
This is like trying to debate against a fundamentalist Christian who insists that the world is a few thousand years old and that the Rapture is imminent. You can point out all the evidence to the contrary and even have experts in the field offer their take, but they'll only except those bits of information that fall in line with the idea that they want to believe.
Czech guy is a liar. He says that there are no significant physiological differences between East Africans and Europeans and that's patently false. He's even admitted that he deceives his "best friend" about his own PED use. He's a complete waste of time because he's not interested in having a discussion, just spouting off crap.
