RITZ 12:56 proof that lydiard style marathon base training is key

"No doubt about it, Brad Hudson deserves a lot of the credit for this, the majority of credit," said Salazar. "He'd gotten him in great shape from all the marathon training, very aerobically fit."

Salazar, whose training group also includes current NCAA and U.S. 10K champ Galen Rupp, immediately gave Ritzenhein a dose of speed training.

"We were very careful because if you give someone too much stuff too fast, you can hurt them," Salazar said. "We were very careful in bringing him into the workouts Galen was doing. They wouldn't always run together.

"He ran workouts like he'd never done before, showed speed he never showed before. Looking back he literally has not had a bad workout. He's hit every single workout the last three months."

Speed Training, PERIOD.

None of this should be surprising given what Salazar was doing with Rupp, the 3:39, and the 800.

Ritz HAD the speed ABILITY necessary to compete with the Africans, but it hadn't been developed properly. He finally got delivered from all the antiquated Lydiard bullshit, and he's reaping the results.

HRE:

Aerobic runs in high volume, tempo/threshold runs, hill repeats, long-fast repeats on the track or on the roads, interval training, farleks, long runs are all training elements that existed before Arthur Lydiard began to coach. Not one of these training elements was invented or created by Lydiard.

The use of a high mileage build up for a distance race is an approach that was used by other coaches before Lydiard. Interval training, tempo runs/threshold runs, hill repeats, farleks, long runs have all been used by other coaches before Lydiard .

Ritzenhein's improvement can be mostly attributed to a new stimulus added to his training which wasn't there before. This new training stimulus came in the form of short fast repetitions. This is what made the difference.

There is no connection between Ritz's 12:56 and Arthur Lydiard, NONE.

Coach D wrote:

Speed Training, PERIOD.

None of this should be surprising given what Salazar was doing with Rupp, the 3:39, and the 800.

Ritz HAD the speed ABILITY necessary to compete with the Africans, but it hadn't been developed properly. He finally got delivered from all the antiquated Lydiard bullshit, and he's reaping the results.

He needed the base to go with the speed. If you can't understand that, I hope to Hell you're not a coach in real life. What a dumbf***.

Years of coaching wrote:

HRE:

Aerobic runs in high volume, tempo/threshold runs, hill repeats, long-fast repeats on the track or on the roads, interval training, farleks, long runs are all training elements that existed before Arthur Lydiard began to coach. Not one of these training elements was invented or created by Lydiard.

The use of a high mileage build up for a distance race is an approach that was used by other coaches before Lydiard. Interval training, tempo runs/threshold runs, hill repeats, farleks, long runs have all been used by other coaches before Lydiard .

Ritzenhein's improvement can be mostly attributed to a new stimulus added to his training which wasn't there before. This new training stimulus came in the form of short fast repetitions. This is what made the difference.

There is no connection between Ritz's 12:56 and Arthur Lydiard, NONE.

Lydiard never claimed to have invented high volume, etc. He merely created his own system. The guy who stated that Ritz had a base coupled with "speedwork" (the correct type of intervals etc) is correct. In the end, there is some similarity with Ritz's training over the year and a Lydiard approach. But that can be said of many systems. Most US runners are too wrapped up in on-the-track work to concentrate on building strength, on building their base. Ritz's marathon training over a few years undoubtedly made a huge difference.

Your crazy if you don't think the aerobic development was key. Keep doing your plyometrics and low mileage and develop that speed in the 1500m like most of worlds coaches minus Kellog. Let me know what your p.r.s are after it's all said and done. The marathon training developed him much better than if he worked on his speed. Very little room to improve in speed.

RWD: It's interesting what names you cited. We may have thought of Jen Rhines as almost a complete convert to the marathon, but then she goes out and runs 14:55 for 5000, a career best. So it's obviously possible, given a reasonable interval in-between, to go back and forth between the marathon and the track, and the idea that marathon training is going to kill your middle distance and distance speed is kind of nonsense, isn't it?

BH: Arthur Lydiard's whole philosophy is to develop your anaerobic threshold, and that's all the marathon is. It helps many people. Part of the problem is when people go to the marathon, there are huge financial incentives and then they forget some of the skills in the shorter events and that prevents them from moving back down. You can improve a lot in the shorter distances after running a marathon.

From many years ago.

Yes, the training that he did in the past developed his aerobic capacity. But why didn't he run 12:56 under wetmore and under hudson?

mcpqmqcwces wrote:

I knew i did some misconception.

Lydiard it's training principle and common sense.

The Lydiard is all about periodization and optimization.

Lydiard training it´s Usain Bolt and T. Gay also but B. Franklin training as well. When i go out and i try one step forward i can attribute my step run to Lydiard.

:) Antonio i love you. :)

nepoks wrote:

Ask Renato Canova about Lydiard's training philosophy. Canova states that Lydiard's model was great for runners in the 1960's but that in today's modern race-day world of having to peak for World XC, Indoor and Outdoor Track, and Road Races, Marathons, etc, at all times of the year, the Lydiard model can no longer be applied.

Canova applies a very Lydiard-style program to his athletes. They spend two solid months working the high-end aerobic range (the "fundamental" phase). They transition to the track for (shockingly brutal) interval sessions later in the season...just like lydiard's athletes did. I don't understand where people get the idea that Snell stepped onto the track after 12 weeks of high mileage and ran 1:44. High mileage (or more specifically, the aerobic fitness developed by high mileage) ENABLES the high-quality anaerobic and speed work that makes a great 5000m runner (or 1500m or 3000m or...). You can't have one without the other. Haile G DID do insane workouts--read 'The Greatest' for a few accounts of some of the more insane ones--but also did a LOT of high volume aerobic work. Three hour long runs at 10,000ft are not a new thing for "The Emperor."

p.s. I'm wrapping up a review and analysis of Renato Canova and Claudio Berardelli training methods--keep your eyes out for it in the following months.

So Ryan Hall should be next to break 13 and 27? He was after all a better miler than Ritz was back in college.

Seriously, if all it took was to run 100 to 140 miles per week for 4 months, 2 months of hill repeats, 2 months of intervals, 1 month of sharpeners; then we'd have a slew of sub 13 guys which is NOT the case.

In addition, this was the type of training most of the runners were doing in the 70's and early 80's and NO ONE broke 13. Though I'm sure Letsrun would go apesh!t for the next "US born" guy that had PR's like John Walker, Steve Ovett, David Moorcroft, Steve Scott.

I'll admit, we'd probably have more sub 13:20 guys (in the US) with the Lydiard model. But what takes a runner from 13:10 to 12:55 is definitely "post Lydiard."

So Hall is Next? wrote:

So Ryan Hall should be next to break 13 and 27? He was after all a better miler than Ritz was back in college.

Seriously, if all it took was to run 100 to 140 miles per week for 4 months, 2 months of hill repeats, 2 months of intervals, 1 month of sharpeners; then we'd have a slew of sub 13 guys which is NOT the case.

In addition, this was the type of training most of the runners were doing in the 70's and early 80's and NO ONE broke 13. Though I'm sure Letsrun would go apesh!t for the next "US born" guy that had PR's like John Walker, Steve Ovett, David Moorcroft, Steve Scott.

I'll admit, we'd probably have more sub 13:20 guys (in the US) with the Lydiard model. But what takes a runner from 13:10 to 12:55 is definitely "post Lydiard."

I'll agree with you there. We learned a lot in the 60s and 70s, and we can't FORGET what we learned, but we can't get complacent either. Canova talks about how the coach and athlete must have the mentality of explorers, journeying into the "darkness" to uncover new secrets about human physiology, psychology, and overall peformance. I agree wholeheartedly. I think a lot of this "post-Lydiard" training comes in the form of working from the top down--that is, building the race you want to run. Canova's basic philosophy is that all training exists solely to support the workouts done at race pace, and everything leading up to this is utilitarian...a Daniels-style "do what you need to get where you want, then stop" approach. Canova's runners do what they need to do for the first four months to enable them to complete extremely taxing workouts at the pace they want to do their races at. High mileage and high-quality aerobic work are necessarily a part of this, but are pieces in a larger puzzle.

Years of coaching wrote:

HRE:

There is no connection between Ritz's 12:56 and Arthur Lydiard, NONE.

However when Isinbayeva breaks women’s pole vault world record it’s Lydiard attribute.

She does Lydiard training. Absolutely.

There is no connection in every US record but in every world record ther’s some Lydiard influence.

uranidiot

Skuj wrote:

The title of this thread is abject falsehood.

Hudson interview. It seems he doesn’t know what he does. He did nothing but Lydiard training. Point.

http://www.mensracing.com/athletes/interviews/bradhudson.html

Mens Racing: Can you explain a little more what your system is after you've absorbed all these influences?

Brad Hudson: I can say it's not Lydiard, not super periodized. We're doing what you would call 'workouts' in every phase. I believe in a lot of hills to build strength throughout the body. Mileage...mileage is obviously important to provide the aerobic support for everything. But it's not just mileage, mileage, mileage. We're always working toward being able to accomplish more specific work.

[quote]uranidiot wrote:

uranidiot

[quote]

What a planet. Life on Uranus.

Skuj wrote:

The title of this thread is abject falsehood.

So you're saying it's true (in a low state of falsehood)?

Years of coaching wrote:

Yes, the training that he did in the past developed his aerobic capacity. But why didn't he run 12:56 under wetmore and under hudson?

That's exactly the point I made above.

Ritz ran XC for several years -- plateaued.

Ritz ran marathons for some years --plateaued.

Finallly, Salazar seems to have gotten him training properly for speed -- AR.

Everybody thought Ritz didn't HAVE any footspeed, but what he didn't have was proper training. And the Lydiard jogging bullshit I see in this thread is exactly why Americans haven't progressed while the Africans have gotten faster.

From the NYT article "Africans Hearing Footsteps":

"I don't need a mileage like the runners here. I can push myself" --Felix Limo

Seriously, this is a ridiculous post. Ritz finally got two consecutive years of hard, long, continuous training behind him with access to some of the same stuff the Portland guys have had for years. Throw in an altitude tent that enables him to sleep up in Nepal while training at sea level, some sharpening work with fast peers, and bingo. Sub-13:00. Of course, his 8:11 two-mile two years ago already told us he had the leg speed to go sub-13:10.

Too much speed is what kept getting Ritz constantly injured to begin with.