50 and Slowing - Masters / Seniors Input Please

JoeGarland wrote:

Caveman wrote:

Believe it or not, 2 good running friends died at the end of runs while sprinting. They both finished the run with strong sprints, came to a complete halt, collapsed and died on the spot. Both were excellent runners in great shape.

As J.R. noted, you need to put some details on this. I do hard intervals and faster repeats, both as stand-alone workouts. And I race pretty hard, sometimes kicking it in.

What happened with these guys?

Pete McArdle, a 1964 Olympic marathoner was coming back from an injury. I was not there but as I understand it, he finished a training run, collapsed and died as he finished. Van Cortland Park in NYC has a plaque in his memory placed where he died. He was well known and loved by all who knew him. The other friend who died was a local runner who was about 60 at the time. He finished a 5K race and died at the finish line. He almost always won his age group and was in great shape.

As I understand it, when you completely stop running suddenly, blood pressure drops and blood pools in the legs. If there is not enough blood pressure to drive the blood back into the heart, the heart seizes up, like a car engine without sufficient oil. At least, thats the theory. I dont remember where I read about it. The actual cause of those 2 deaths may have been unrelated to stopping suddenly at the end of a training run or race.

In training, I always allow at least 5 mins. on each end to warm up and cool down. And then I walk around slowly for another 5-10 mins. I never end a training run at full speed. I figure the extra 5 mins. is cheap insurance. In races, its more difficult. I try to keep moving past the finish line as much as possible. I wont sprint at the end of a marathon to save a few seconds; its too dangerous. For shorter races, I like to run beyond the finish line a bit and keep jogging for a few minutes.

masters mid-sprinter wrote:

I suggest doing short sprints a couple of days a week, like 8x50 or 4x100 with near-full recoveries (five minutes at least).

Eventually start incorporating speed drills, too. Listen to your body, do a lot of self-massage on your calves, work on your flexibility and only sprint when you're warm.

I ran 8x 55 this morning for warm up, took a 5 minute break, then 4x 110's barefoot on the grass. The sets were on 1 and 3 minute starts respectively. My times for the 110's were surprisingly much faster than expected, maybe because of the warmup and being excited to do them. I've had a very slight, hardly noticable headache today from the sprints, similar to when I ran sprints hard a long time ago. This session turned out to be much more enjoyable than expected and I am looking forward to doing it again regularly. Thank you for your suggestion. :)

Do you still compete in road races too?

What kind of drills do you recommend?

I have to think those deaths are aberrations. I stop suddenly hundreds of times a year, after parts of speedwork and races, with no ill effects nor have I seen anyone else having such problems.

The toughest XC race in NY is named after Pete McArdle. It's a 15K at Van Cortlandt. Brutal.

Going to have to agree with master sprinter on this.

If you've been running for years, you naturally settle.

Settle down on your heels, don't raise your knees as much.

Get lazy arm. You start running TOO economically, it's only natural. Your hips go back, you start "sitting in the bucket" as Lydiard would say.

You need to wake up; shock yourself out of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD8REUBsj0M

3min 55sec -5.00 min shows alot.

50 and Slowing wrote:

I'm very near 50. Up through my 40s and into my early 40s, I was running fairly fast and doing well in my age group. As I approach 50, I'm still about the same type of runner as always (running since 1973), but my wheels are falling-off fast. Since turning 45 or so, I seem to be slowing significantly, maybe more so than my fellow runners. I realize people age at different rates. However, do most people experience a large slow-down from ages 45 thru 50?

The biggest change I have noticed is that we cannot take for granted muscular strength, especially the muscles that support our joints.

It is a use it or lose it proposition. Let's face it, we distance runners can go years in middle age without cutting or jumping or generally working those supporting muscles that are ready to go when we are young.

A knee surgery last November forced me to rehab and generally hit the gym and I was very surprised at how my upper and lower body strength had declined, even with running 2500-3000 miles per year on hills in my forties.

Lawn work and home improvement were even becoming tiring.

I despise cross training but am starting to incorporate a bit and my workouts have improved.

gg

I find it interesting that many of us have similar histories with the sport and feel exactly the same way. I never cross trained or stretched until my late 60s but now find both of great value. I also walk at least ten minutes before and after each workout. Speaking of those who have passed on, I have a list of over 17 longtime hard trainers who ran marathons and have had atrial fibrillation or flutter.

Another note: It is my observation and experience that the rate of deterioration seems greatly increased for many as we approach our late 60s and continues to increase much faster thereafter thus making us more susceptible to more injuries if one is not extra careful. In addition, other factors come into play at a greater rate. But, boy, running and jogging are still great fun!

Have you ever heard of The Commander's Cup?

Stranger wrote:

Question for everyone - with this slowing down as you age, what goes first:

You heart does not handle it

You stride become smaller

You stride frequency decreases

Recovery goes first. Once that happens, everything else slowly erodes.

47 yr old with PF

OrvilleAtkins wrote:

gg

I find it interesting that many of us have similar histories with the sport and feel exactly the same way. I never cross trained or stretched until my late 60s but now find both of great value. I also walk at least ten minutes before and after each workout. Speaking of those who have passed on, I have a list of over 17 longtime hard trainers who ran marathons and have had atrial fibrillation or flutter.

Another note: It is my observation and experience that the rate of deterioration seems greatly increased for many as we approach our late 60s and continues to increase much faster thereafter thus making us more susceptible to more injuries if one is not extra careful. In addition, other factors come into play at a greater rate. But, boy, running and jogging are still great fun!

I think the contrast in strength was for me was particularly stark and humbling because I was not a distance runner in my teens and college years but played football and rugby and cared most about my maximum bench press and forty yard dash time. After about six years of marathon training - studiously avoiding the barbells to decrease body wgt - I was in for a great surprise. Strength that used to return in days was reluctant to return even after long and patient training, albeit with light weights, few sets and high reps. I still want to stay light on these half century joints.

I agree 100% but cross training particularly with weights has to be MORE than just an afterthought. If you want to continue running and running hard you need the muscles to support the joints.

The drills I do (and I've built up to them gradually) include front kicks and back kicks, backward running, and side-to-side jumping, among other things. Hard to explain, but I found good explanations and videos by searching online for sprint drills or plyometrics (not quite the same thing, but the principal is -- you want to touch down for as short a time as possible and lift off with power.) I compete rarely in road races because I find the roads difficult on the joints. My distance running is on grass and trails. I love XC.

This sounds about right, especially #3 and 4. (I'm only 45 but have more than 90,000 miles in the last 30 years.)

I met Kenny Moore at a marathon expo a year ago and he recommended pool running. Lots of elites are into it not just while injured but as an integral part of training. It makes sense in that it involves no pressure on your legs (if you run in the deep end). I did it for a while earlier this year while I was injured but didnt notice anything spectacular. Actually, my doc told me not to do it because it could aggravate my PF problem. I noticed that after I got out of the pool, my injured foot was really weaker. I stopped pool running for that reason. However, its probably a great alternative exercise unless you happen to have PF. Its also refreshing to the legs if you do it right after a run.

advice for sprinters over 60- take up golf

There is a terrific discussion on the affects of aging in the Lore of Running, pp. 80-91.

bump

I don't think you have to resign yourself to getting slower in your late 40's/early 50's.

I just went through a major 2 year slowdown (I'm 48 now). In the past 2 years I went from the high 16's in the 5k to mid 18's. My high 16 two years ago came during a marathon buildup a couple of years ago when I averaged 70 a week for 3 months, after running 40-50 consistently for about 6 years.

Since then, my mileage has dropped back down to 40 or so, and I feel like shit on almost all my runs. My races feel like shit, and my legs feels stiff and old and slow. I used to be a wickedly fast sprinter in high school - literally felt like I was floating all the time. Lately, these 18 minute 5K's feel like I'm breaking apart pavement.

However, about 2 months ago I decided to jack my miles back up to 70 (just did 80 this week) and for the first time in a LOOOOONG time my legs feels great and I'm running 6 minutes miles relatively easy. The first 2-3 weeks of 70 sucked big time, but out of the blue suddenly every run felt great. In fact, last night I did 12 to finish up an 80 mile week, and my last 6 were on the track - all low 6's. 2 months ago I couldn't race a 5k that fast.

I'm not kidding myself that I'll somehow run the low 15's that I did in high school, but there's no doubt I can still run as fast as I did before this last 2 year slide. I think it just takes a major training change. I try to add in strides whenever my legs feel light and loose, which unfortunately is pretty rare. I like doing them on the down hills to minimize the stress on them (gradual downhills I mean).

So, if you have the time (and most of us don't) and aren't ready to give in to getting slower, go for a major bump in miles. Give yourself 3 months. Don't worry about pace - just let it come. My first 2-3 weeks were so ugly it wasn't funny - ran a lot of 9 minute miles. Since then, it's rare I'm over 8. Mostly 7:30's. Two months ago that felt excruciatingly fast, now it's an easy run. Start all runs slow and ease into them. Run twice a day if you can. Just give yourself a couple of months to adjust, and see if it helps.

Bum,

How do strides on 'downhills' minimize stress on the gams?

I have a book by Hudson that encourages running uphill to minimize stress and decrease the risk of injury