To Hadd: malmo disagrees with you. Can you explain the disconnect?

I think Hadd recognizes Bekele as reasonably ST as well. That is why he wrote,"Of course, El G could do it. He knew that no way Bekele was gonna run away from the world’s greatest 1500m runner, so all he had to do was survive till the last 200m in Athens."

I don't want to quibble about the difference between 50.low and 49.high. While 4 x 12.5 is 50, I'm not sure how splits in 1500m and up races rule out that Bekele can cover 400m in 49.99 with a rolling start.

I would rather learn something from your perspective. What training do you think the Ethiopians do that the Kenyans don't that gives Bekele his last 300m speed?

FTIR wrote:

I think Hadd recognizes Bekele as reasonably ST as well.

I'm not so sure about that.

Hadd wrote: "The Beijing Olympics reminds us (in case we forgot) that ST runners cannot win track medals at 1500m, 5k and 10k. Male or female."

wellnow wrote:

I would mostly agree, but I must tell you that Bekele does NOT have sub 50 second 400 pace. This is a common misconception. In fact he is not super fast, his fastest 100m splits in races are 12.5 seconds, and I can verify that data. What is so very special about Bekele is his amazing ability to run up to 300 meters at that pace at the end of a fast race.

So Bekele is more ST than people might realize.

So does that mean that since the fastest 100 meters I ever achieve in a 5k or 10k race is around 15-low that my all-out 400 speed should be 61? It's not (it's likely 56ish), and I'm about as ST as they come.

I just don't see how the 12.5 fact is relevant to his open 400.

Ok so only ST compared to El G.

R.L. Scribner wrote:

So does that mean that since the fastest 100 meters I ever achieve in a 5k or 10k race is around 15-low that my all-out 400 speed should be 61? It's not (it's likely 56ish), and I'm about as ST as they come.

I just don't see how the 12.5 fact is relevant to his open 400.

Yeah, good point. I run 51 flat for 400. You'll never see me drop a 12.75 100 meter segment at any time, ever, during a race longer than 400 meters.

In a 5k? Hell, I may not ever run sub-16. Maybe in a kick I'll hit 15.xx. I think there is no correlation between "en route" 100 meter splits and all out speed.

you are no where near as fits as Bekele, when he hits the bell in 12.05 he probably can run pretty close to his best for the last 300 or so..

You need to be fit to use your speed.

Does FTIR stand for Fourier transform IR spectroscopy?

Yes. After 13 years on letsrun and TnFMedia I finally ran into someone who picked up on it or are you just so bored you googled it?

I think Ngugi in '88 was an example of someone running away from the field. Come to think of it Boutayeb did the same thing although he proved in other races that he could kick a little bit.

FTIR wrote:

I think Hadd recognizes Bekele as reasonably ST as well. That is why he wrote,"Of course, El G could do it. He knew that no way Bekele was gonna run away from the world’s greatest 1500m runner, so all he had to do was survive till the last 200m in Athens."

I don't want to quibble about the difference between 50.low and 49.high. While 4 x 12.5 is 50, I'm not sure how splits in 1500m and up races rule out that Bekele can cover 400m in 49.99 with a rolling start.

I would rather learn something from your perspective. What training do you think the Ethiopians do that the Kenyans don't that gives Bekele his last 300m speed?

I would put Bekele at 51.0 in a 400m race. So how TF does he run the last lap of a fast 10000 in 52.6? And how do Tirunesh Dibaba and Meseret Defar do similar things in the Women's 5000 and 10000m races?

Good question. They train at 8000-10000ft where there is 25-30% less oxygen, which slows the distance paces by about 5-10%, but they can actually sprint faster due to less wind resistance. Also, if you practice running flat out for a short distance at the end of tempos and interval sessions, and gradually increase the length of the sprint, then your muscles learn how to save some energy for a very fast finish.

Now regarding Hadd's comment about Clarke and Bedford and others, Paula Radcliffe being a very good example. These runners failed to win major Championships, not because they lacked enough FT fibers to sprint fast, in my opinion but because they didn't practice the sit and kick tactic. You have to practice this to be able to get better at it, but they were commited front runners, who won so many races this way that they only got into real trouble when they raced against the best in the World.

Could Paula have finished a fast 10000 in 59? Phsycically yes, I believe she had enough basic speed (low 14 100m pace) but she never ever practiced this in races. Her token effort to gain a better sprint finish proved fruitless because what she really needed to finish fast was to practice fishishing with her true flat out pace. This would require a complete change in her psychological approach to racing and a few years to perfect.

How do you put Bekele at 51.0 if he closes faster than Geb ever did, even though Geb was a sub-50 400 runner? While Bekele obviously isn't of the same FT breed that El G was, he is definitely not some super-slow twitch freak who can almost PR at the end of every race. He is still human, and he STILL have accumulated at least SOME buildup in his legs to prevent him from being able to run as fast as he possibly can. It's just physiologically unsound.

And as far as learning to kick races, I agree that she may not have been conditioned as well to hang with kickers, but there is no denying that she is an incredibly fierce competitor. I just can't agree with you that she just didn't practice kicking enough to be able to do it in world stages. If she had the speed to hang with them, she would have.

I boil that down to the part where you say, "because they (did or) didn't practice the sit and kick tactic." Do you think it really is about training specificity or is it more like this article on training your brain to race?

http://petemagill.blogspot.com/2009/07/morning-read-to-train-in-membrane.html

How does your muscles learning to save some energy for a fast finish fit in with neuromuscular coordination?

I don't believe Haile could run under 50 seconds either. I watched him sprint away from Komen and timed his last 200, because it looked incredibly fast, but actually it was 26 something.

Paula Radcliffe didn't ever race this way. She was a time triallist. These type of runners are natural front runners. They never pracitice the sit and kick tactics required to win major Championships.

FTIR wrote:

I boil that down to the part where you say, "because they (did or) didn't practice the sit and kick tactic." Do you think it really is about training specificity or is it more like this article on training your brain to race?

http://petemagill.blogspot.com/2009/07/morning-read-to-train-in-membrane.html

How does your muscles learning to save some energy for a fast finish fit in with neuromuscular coordination?

On this thread:

someone asked me; how do we improve neuromuscular coordination?

I always thought you were an argumentative nut-job with not only limited understanding of physiology but also limited intelligence. I always gave you the benefit of the doubt as I have never met you and I thought you just needed to spout off on forums so you could sound smart and make yourself feel important.

This post reveals your true knowledge and misguided opinions for good.

Where do I start?

You think 6:00 pace becomes 6:30 at 8k altitude? Way too much.

Sprint faster at altiude? Sure you do, by .1-.2 over 100m, and that is liberal. So that is 1%. How does that make any difference in the speeds an athlete can reach at the end of races that ARE NOT AT ALTITUDE?

"gradually increase the length of the sprint, then your muscles learn how to save some energy for a very fast finish."

... this is the best. Do you think it is ENERGY that allows the world's best to run 52-53-54 at the end of 3k-10k races? There is plenty of energy available, it is up to your aerobic fitness to make the energy into ATP at that point. If you can't run a 52 sec 400m when rested you will not be able to at the end of a race. Case closed.

Like I said, before I thought you were an ignorant, opinionated nut, but I read what you said with a grain of salt to see if you might be coming back into Earth's orbit and could grasp fundamental things that most of us understand by high school ... now I won't and don't need to ... in the LITERAL sense of the phrase: you have no idea what you are talking about and you just post to see yourself in print.

darkness wrote:

I always thought you were an argumentative nut-job with not only limited understanding of physiology but also limited intelligence. I always gave you the benefit of the doubt as I have never met you and I thought you just needed to spout off on forums so you could sound smart and make yourself feel important.

Ya think? wellnow (aka Jon Orange) is a nutjob? You don't get out much do you?

darkness wrote:

I would put Bekele at 51.0 in a 400m race.

Bekele has run a 3:32 1500 meters. He is easily under 50 seconds in a 400 meter race

Haile Geb has run 800 meters at 1:49 indoors. He is also easily under 50 seconds in a 400 meter race.

I find it hard to believe anyone could seriously even question this Given all the late race speed they've shown in the past.

They are faster than that wrote:

I find it hard to believe anyone could seriously even question this Given all the late race speed they've shown in the past.

I find it easy to believe that Gebrselassie can't break 50s. Most big kickers are able to come close to top end at the end of a race. That's why they're big kickers. Marty Liquori being a perfect example. Marty says he's never run under 25s for 200, but it's clear that he's been able to run 26s at the end of races. Do you realize how fast 26s is at the end of a distance race?

Respect your argument but you do you also honestly find it easy to believe that a 3:32 1500 meter runner could not break 50 seconds for 400 meters?