Matt Carpenter

Wait, you're talking about weight lifting here and not cycling or distance running? I can't really tell. AlSal is convinced that you can't set a WR or win a medal on the world level in distance running without PEDs. The desire to win is the desire to win, regardless of sport or circumstance.

Why would a "doping culture" be necessary? Was it a "doping culture" that led to valid suspicions of Youngquist and Hellebuyck?

I don't see a lot of basis for that assumption.

I agree, it was weird to see that in an otherwise softball fluff piece.

Well, except that child molestation is a much, much graver charge than PED use is.

You must have even less going on in your life than I do.

Stay classy.

Robert Jindal wrote:

Cross Nationals, OT wrote:

Are you sure she's never been tested?

Well, I've never seen any results, therefore .... ??!...

What if Carpenter was lieing? What if he has been tested, but Hasay hasn't? Why should we believe him about not being tested?

Jordan Hasay has been tested in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Twice in 2007.

You can search for yourself.

I don't see what is wrong with any article about professional strength or endurance sports mentioning drugs.

-Strength and endurance can be aided by drugs.

-By virtue of being professional, money is involved.

-Any time money is given for the best performance, be it wall street, sports, gambling, there is the motivation to cheat.

If your sport is big enough to make the front page of the nytimes, you have to expect that the other features of pro sports come with it.

you might be biased wrote:

AlSal is convinced that you can't set a WR or win a medal on the world level in distance running without PEDs.

So now you're claiming that Salazar is convinced that his own athlete, Kara Goucher, is a doper. And when did he confess this to you? Honestly, you sound like another wannabe who knows nothing about any of these people and knows nothing about what they've done to mold themselves into decent athletes.

I've gotten a very similar comment from Bary Magee on about three occasions when he and I have discussed current world records and medals. That doesn't mean it's true, but it does reflect a belief common to many who are close to the top level of the sport. There certainly is enough suspicion about Salazar that many people would take that comment, if he did say it,as a major and revealing slip of the tongue.

I'm not saying anything here about what I believe about records, Salazar, or Carpenter. But the comment about the absence of drug testing in mountain racing made me think that EPO would be really useful if you're racing at those altitudes. I would imagine the author had some similar kind of thought and felt like he needed to do something with the thought in his article. It does seem like a "When did you stop beating your wife?" comment and may unfairly convey some sort of guilt. But I think that's just the price you pay right now for being good at a sport which has an image of being drug infested.

No, now you're making that leap of reasoning. His claim has been published (he made it prior to working with the Gouchers) and is widely known. You don't have to believe me, look it up. I'll find it for you later when I get the time if you can't find it on your own. Honestly, you sound like you're projecting in that final sentence, given that what you've said has been about things you perceive regarding runners in Carpenter's shoes and nothing about Carpenter specifically.

HRE wrote:

It does seem like a "When did you stop beating your wife?" comment and may unfairly convey some sort of guilt. But I think that's just the price you pay right now for being good at a sport which has an image of being drug infested.

It's the unfortunate (yet predictable) effect of having an NGB that has proven to fail to catch and out dopers consistently. It's become impossible to trust in performance anymore because even the testing and sanctions that do occur doesn't have sharp enough teeth. USATF and IOC have interests that conflict with really cleaning up the sport. Even token attempts to assure a level playing field fall well short and seem pointless when people like Marion Jones make a mockery of it all. USATF and IOC are supposed to be running the show yet who holds them truly accountable for their performance as governing bodies? The second Marion Jones admitted to as much as she did cop to heads should have rolled at doping control in USATF, IOC, USADA, and WADA. When will they find the stones to serve the best interests of athletes in terms of clean sport? As we've seen from the thread about the letter in the blog post from an elite athlete to Logan, they certainly aren't helping the athletes any financially so the least they could to is stamp out the incentive to dope.

Reliant Aries wrote:

It's the unfortunate (yet predictable) effect of having an NGB that has proven to fail to catch and out dopers consistently. It's become impossible to trust in performance anymore because even the testing and sanctions that do occur doesn't have sharp enough teeth. USATF and IOC have interests that conflict with really cleaning up the sport.

Matt Carpenter is not a member of USATF. He has been quite vocal about this. USATF is the NGB for mountain, ultra, and trail running in the USA. Therefore Matt would not be subject to testing regardless. Plus USADA now handles all testing, not USATF.

Regardless I agree w/ HRE that it reads like an unfair "when did you stop beating your wife" comment. Of course some of that could come from the general climate of suspicion surround all athletic performances these days, running included. I suspect poor writing or editing may be a culprit.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Matt Carpenter is not a member of USATF. He has been quite vocal about this. USATF is the NGB for mountain, ultra, and trail running in the USA. Therefore Matt would not be subject to testing regardless. Plus USADA now handles all testing, not USATF.

Regardless I agree w/ HRE that it reads like an unfair "when did you stop beating your wife" comment. Of course some of that could come from the general climate of suspicion surround all athletic performances these days, running included. I suspect poor writing or editing may be a culprit.

You've missed the main idea I was getting at. It's not necessary for him or anyone else to be a member. USATF and USOC are essentially in charge of the sport of running (over hurdles, up mountains, whatever) in this country at the top levels. (ATRA and whatever else are on very few people's radars.) Their actions guide the popular perception of the entire sport here. That reputation and image extends to any top runner, regardless of affiliation. (Also, USADA is a puppet organization, they just handle the screening of samples that come via chain of custody from USATF sanctioned events. By SOP they don't announce violations or hand out sanctions, USATF and USOC still handle that part.) What it boils down to, for me, is that if Carpenter arouses public suspicion simply by being good that is primarily the fault of USATF and USOC for how they've run the sport in the decades leading up to today. Our system has a broader reach beyond just those who are directly involved with USATF and USOC. It's like if your last name is Manson or if you named your child Judas. It doesn't imply guilt by word association, but the public perception of that name precedes you and who you actually are. Running has the same problem, the sport has achieved a certain reputation and public perception thanks to a shoddy doping control system.

Just so you know there is a difference between mountain running and ultra's. Mountain races are much shorter usually. Now I know they test for mountain races 100% sure of it as I have a close friend who does them. As for Ultras which Carpenter has had alot of recent success I'm not sure if they test seriously. Its obvious that drugs would help an ultra guy, these races are super long. He should be tested just like the rest of us. Or he should't be allowed to compete. He runs shorter mountain races occassionally as well

You said that Salazar "is convinced that you can't . . . win a medal on the world level in distance running without PEDs." That's total crap. You obviously don't know any of these people, you've obviously never raced or trained at a high level, and you're simply talking like another of those mid-pack runners who speculate about the lives of people who are much better athletes than they've ever been and who like to sound like insiders by talking about the dirty little secrets of people they don't know. And I'm certainly not "projecting." I've raced against Matt, Al, and a lot of other pretty good runners, and I have a very good idea of what can be accomplished with a little bit of talent and a lot of hard work.

I have certainly had suspicions about certain runners, but there's very little in Matt's running career that has surprised me (except, perhaps, the fact that he never nailed a better marathon time), and nothing that even hints of doping. He's simply a runner with a reasonable amount of talent who has chosen to devote himself, in a very systematic and focused way, to maximizing that talent in a particular niche of the sport that generally doesn't get a lot of attention and doesn't offer much to the top competitors beyond certain psychological rewards. Very, very few people choose to go down that path, especially when they are intelligent enough and driven enough to succeed in less risky occupations, because there's a very good chance that you may wake up one day and realize that you're forty years old, you're broke, you're injured, and you're totally isolated in your little hut up in the mountains of Nowheresville, Colorado, or Wherethehellami, Wyoming. If Matt has chosen that path, taken those risks, and avoided that fate, good for him. I see no good reason to suggest that successfully navigating that risky path involves sticking syringes into your arms or buttocks and illegally squirting drugs into your body.

BULLoney wrote:

As for Ultras which Carpenter has had alot of recent success I'm not sure if they test seriously. Its obvious that drugs would help an ultra guy, these races are super long. He should be tested just like the rest of us. Or he should't be allowed to compete. He runs shorter mountain races occassionally as well

We've been over this. He is not tested because he is not a member of the NGB (USATF). Most races in the trail/ultra community are not run or sanctioned by USATF so he can compete just as anybody else can. The race could require testing but I am not sure any of these races do as testing is expensive.

I don't think avoiding testing has anything to do with his lack of particpation in USATF, I think it is over other principles. This does come at a cost as he is not allowed to compete for USATF championships (although sometimes he can compete in the same event as these are often just piggybacked on other races) and is not eligible to be named to national teams. Also, to be fair, he does not have the defense of "I've been tested XXX times and never failed a test" although that is not much of a defense to alleged doping.

Educate yourself and you'll no longer be so obviously ignorant, Bitterman.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1469164&page=0

I know a hell of a lot more than you wishfully assume I do. I may not know Matt or Al but I do know that you're no Matt or Al. I wasn't further from Al's level in my day than you were in yours. I've raced and trained with runners (Olympic finalists) at least as good and as accomplished as you have. What I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears has brought me to this point, I'm not cluelessly speculating about the infiltration of PEDs in this sport. You don't know the sport as well as you delusionally believe you do if you honestly believe that anyone who is close enough to the top to warrant a profile in NYT should be above any and all suspicion.

I assume you provided that link rather than a quotation, because Al never said what you claim he is now "convinced" about Kara and others.

I don't know what you mean when you say that I'm "no Matt or Al." Although my marathon times happened to be slower than Al's and somewhat faster than Matt's, I don't suggest that I had an athletic career that was in any way equivalent to theirs. Al accomplished a tremendous amount in track and road racing. Matt has accomplished a tremendous amount in mountain running and ultramarathoning. I did a few things that were, in retrospect, pretty good in light of other things that I was focusing on in my life. But ultimately, we are all different people whose lives have gone in different directions over the years.

Don't try to snow me about your own running accomplishments or your inside knowledge about the sport. I can spot people like you from a thousand miles away. You're the equivalent of the former high-school football players who sit on barstools watching the big game and pontificating about what you believe to be the lives of real athletes.

Ignorant AND arrogant, very nice. What don't you understand about Salazar's words in the link I posted? It's right there in front of your nose, does it need to repeatedly smack you in the face and over the head to finally penetrate your skull? If you could stop being irrationally defensive for a nanosecond it just might.

You sure as hell suggested that your brilliant athletic career, which you conveniently vaguely allude to yet never put any information to, gave you some unique insights into the ways and means of your fellow anointed ones, Matt and Al. It's just like any other claim put up by anyone else on the internet with a clever anonymous moniker. If you weren't so ridiculously self-righteous you might be able to recognize that fact.

I don't even know who the fuck you are, big guy, so how could you possibly be important enough to me to "snow"? You are, in fact, a loudmouth nobody on a message board just like almost anyone else. Hey, keep telling yourself whatever helps you get through the night, it's no skin off my nose. I didn't bring it up, you did. That was your weak move to make the discussion personal.

"I believe that it is currently difficult to be among the top 5 in the world in any of the distance events without using EPO or Human Growth Hormone." - Alberto Salazar

http://www.law.duke.edu/sportscenter/salazar.pdf

you might be biased wrote:

Ignorant AND arrogant, very nice. What don't you understand about Salazar's words in the link I posted? It's right there in front of your nose, does it need to repeatedly smack you in the face and over the head to finally penetrate your skull? If you could stop being irrationally defensive for a nanosecond it just might.

You sure as hell suggested that your brilliant athletic career, which you conveniently vaguely allude to yet never put any information to, gave you some unique insights into the ways and means of your fellow anointed ones, Matt and Al.

I read the statement by Salazar. It doesn't come close to saying what you claimed. It is absurd for you to assert that Salazar is convinced that everyone who medals in international competition is a doper.

I didn't claim to have had a brilliant athletic career. But it is true that I, like Matt and many others, discovered a long time ago that if you have a bit of talent and you train hard enough and smart enough, you can beat just about everyone else in the United States in a long-distance race, and you can do it without doping. So when wannabes like you declare that every reasonably good runner must be suspected of violating drug laws and sports rules, you are recklessly casting doubt on the hard-earned accomplishments of a lot of good honest people.

As for my anonymity on this site, it has nothing to do with running. If you conclude that I'm just another poseur on a site that is swamped with them, I can live with that.