To those of you who have raced the steeplechase...

jeepers wrote:

Malmo, you and oldsteeplestud are both steadfastly refusing to see the point here.

Actually it's you, who stubbornly refuses to see the point. The steeplechase is a distant cousin to the hurdle races, but it is not a hurdle race. Want to see something really funny? -- put IM hurdlers, who are used to jumping over 36 inch hurdles, in a steeplechase, then watch the hilarity break out.

Good luck with your quest, jeepers, we'll be cheering for you.

"I was at the Olympic Trials for the men's and women's steeple, and the thing I noticed was that everyone in the race had excellent form and all hurdled the barrier without slowing down at all. That should tell us something."

You were at the Olympic Trials so that makes you an expert? Who do you think I'm going to listen to, an anonymous self-professed expert or 2 real steeplechase experts?

I'm not professing to be an expert nor do I believe that because you were successful back in the day that you have all of the answers. Nor do I believe that because I train with runners who participated in the trials last year and they seek my advice on their training, makes my opinion any more relavent. All that I'm saying is that neglecting any one aspect of your training hinders you from reaching your potential. I will take ANY opportunity to have an advantage over my competition. Adding this sort of work certainly does nothing to hurt you, and I know it has helped me. SO you think I'm an idiot wasting y time and I think your out of touch.... so be it, we disagree.

Is it illegal to touch the barriers with your hands?

Ventulus vs Lanang vs the new nike mambas. Anyone ave any opinions on this?

Chase08 wrote:

Is it illegal to touch the barriers with your hands?

No.

All time list for men:

8:08.82 Daniel Lincoln (Nik) 07/14/06

8:09.17 Henry Marsh (AW) 08/28/85

8:09.76 Mark Croghan (NikI) 08/21/93

8:10.43 ----Croghan 07/12/95

8:10.56 ----Croghan 08/30/94

8:10.69 ----Croghan 07/17/91

8:11.29 ----Croghan 08/18/00

8:11.96 ----Lincoln 07/22/06

8:12.37 ----Marsh 08/17/83

8:12.65 ----Lincoln 07/08/05

…………………………………………………………………………………..

8:13.16 Brian Diemer (AW) 08/29/84

8:14.26 Marc Davis (FLAC) 08/05/93

8:14.82 Tim Broe (adi) 06/29/01

8:15.69 Steve Slattery (Nik) 09/14/07

8:15.77 Pascal Dobert (Nik) 07/20/00

8:16.59 Ivan Huff (adi) 09/05/86

8:16.88 Danny Lopez (Miz)

Previous was the U.S. all time list.

Below are the most all time U.S. world rankings:

13 times

Henry Marsh - #1 10x, #2 3x

12 times

Mark Croghan - #1 5x, #2 5x, #5 1x, #9 1x

9 times

Brian Diemer - 9 times, #1 5x, #2 5x

8 times

Ivan Huff

Mike Manley

Tom Nohilly

7 times

Doug Brown

Brian Abshire

Barry Brown

Dan Reese

Don Timm

I think the problem is that your definition of "hurdle race" is different than mine. I define a hurdle race as a "race in which the runner must jump over a barrier" whereas you seem to be talking about focusing on the 2 stepping, 3 stepping, etc. that 110/400m hurdlers spend their lives practicing. Or perhaps you're saying that it's different because the barriers don't move? I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. Because no matter how you slice it, there are barriers that you have to jump over in the steeple. They may not be "hurdles" in the literal definition, so I'm sorry if that caused confusion, but the point remains exactly the same. You can't argue that the steeple is "1% jumping" as oldsteeplestud tried to, because the differential between flat and steeple 3k times simply does not bear this out. So if you accept that the barriers do make a difference in how fast you run, then logically shouldn't you try to reduce the difference they make to the smallest amount of time possible? The generally accepted way to reduce the amount of time that barriers slow you down is to focus on maintaining momentum through the barriers. This is easiest for most people (and I do say most, some people have unorthodox form that works great for them) by using what we know as common "hurdle form", i.e. straight lead leg, trail leg tucked and pulled to the side, opposite arm extended to counterbalance lead leg, etc etc. If you can come up with something else that doesn't require much effort and helps you maintain momentum, then great, I have no problem with that. But this works best for most people, and the best way to make it most efficient is to practice the form. Ergo, practicing "hurdle form" helps your steeplechasing.

I am NOT, I repeat NOT, trying to say that hurdle form is the most important aspect of the steeplechase. Nor am I saying that practicing for the steeple is close at all to practicing for the 110 or 400 hurdles. The main difference (and I actually do have some experience here, I helped coach my high school's 300 hurdlers) is that in short hurdle races, you are focused on staying as low as possible, snapping your lead leg down very forcefully as you clear the hurdle, and then using your arms to powerfully pull you through the first stride to resume sprinting. In steeplechase, while the basic actions remain the same (linking left leg/right leg and vice versa, practicing tucking the trail leg to a certain extent), the focus is merely on staying comfortable and smooth. It is also generally accepted that in the steeple, staying as low as possible to the barrier is actually counterproductive, because doing so late in the race when you're tired risks crashing into the barrier. That said, I do think that practicing the steeple-specific version of hurdle form (and yes, I will continue to call it that, because it is the act of clearing a medium-height barrier without using hands) is highly beneficial.

Hope that clears my position up a little.

J.R. wrote:

Previous was the U.S. all time list.

Below are the most all time U.S. world rankings:

That list wasn't of World rankings. Here is your American world rankings list.

Curt Stone 4,3 (49,50)

Horace Ashenfelter 1 (52)

Phil Coleman 6 (58)

George Young 9,7,6,4,(61,62,64,68)

George Malley 6 (77)

Henry Marsh 7, 8,6,7,1,1,2,5,1,3,8,8 (77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88)

Ron Addison 8 (77)

Doug Brown 9 (78)

John Gregorek 4 (81)

Ken Martin 10 (81)

Brian Diemer 4,5,9,8,10 (84,87,89,91,92)

Mark Croghan 4,4,(93,94)

Hurdling ability does make a significant difference in the steeplechase. Malmo is it possible that you had excellent natural form. Obviously, the best steeplers are those who can run a fast 3k and then run a 3k with 35 barriers a close as possible to their flat 3k time. In order to do, a runner must be able to transition quickly from running-to-hurdling-running repeatedly. Rhythm IS important in this race, but you must be capable of making adjustments quickly as well. The coach from Weber State delivers a really excellent lecture on this. It's been published online somewhere though I don't remember where.

Article by the Weber State coach:

http://www.coachr.org/msteep.htm

I ran around 12 races with my best at 9:12, and I do have to say that it was somewhat scary towards the end of the race. I was never one to step on the barriers, but did occasionaly at the end of a race due to the fact that I was in the "runners high" state and my body was terribly fatigued. I've fallen a few times and is not fun; once by clipping a barrier and the other was on a rainy day when the plastic arch piece of my spikes landed on the water hurdle instead of the spikes and I fell in the pit face first. I even remember hearing the crowds oohs and ahhs. It was somewhat embarrassing. Make sure you toe off with the spike plate!!!

Good form does help, but it matters what you do in between the barriers. It is imperative that you accelerate before the water jump to allow a fluid, straight projecting leap. A good steepler will have only one foot land in the water pit. In the perfect race, a steepler might even have only one shoe wet.

Also make sure that you map a clear projection before the water pit if there is a pack around you. Practice the pit jump by setting up a barrier in front of a long jump pit and marking where the water would end. Try to have a more horizontal leap or elongated stride when going over the barrier and have only one foot land before the water line.

One of the most important things to work on is fluidity. Studder-stepping each barrier will lead to you finishing in the back of the pack. Be comfortable going over the hurdles with either leg. You don't have to have great form, but as long as you are keeping a consistent motion over the barriers you should be fine.

The steeplechase is not for the fragile. I've had numerous injuries over a 4-year period which prevented me from running a 5th year. I have bone spurs and calcium deposits under my knees and always have pains in those spots when I try to run. Make sure you are fit to pursue this race, because it could lead to ending your career.

I'm only 25, but my days of competitive racing seem over due to training/racing the steeplechase. Do I regret it? Not a chance. It is one of the most exhilarating races you could possibly ever compete in. You will get a great sense of accomplishment after every race, even if it is not your best time.

Good luck to all that attempt it.

[quote]malmo wrote:

-- put IM hurdlers, who are used to jumping over 36 inch hurdles, in a steeplechase, then watch the hilarity break out.

As a steeplechase in the old days I tried IM hurdles. Hilarity broke out...it was an all-comer meet in Eugene, they had the hurdles set up and needed some guys to fill the lanes. Yeah, why not.

Malmo is right, fitness is nearly everything, I think you have like the idea of it.

Tom

I'll put it this way:

I can count on one hand the number of times I threw up after flat races.

I threw up after every steeple.

It is very hard- but awesome and a true challenge every time. You have to be extremely willing to hurt and a little crazy.

I agree about accelerating into the water barrier at the very least- even if you're dying in the last 1k and you have absolutely nothing left, you HAVE to accelerate into the water jump. There's no other way.

Make sure you do some fast 200/300 reps with some hurdles to practice your finishing speed with the barriers- you'll be surprised how much different it is hurdling while trying to kick vs. hurdling at your normal race pace.