A discussion of important things that should be taught in schools but aren't (NRR -- Non Relationship/Running Related)

absnp wrote:

[quote]Public schools need fixing wrote:

Public schools have every right to expel students, but administrators won't put forth the effort and the school system won't back them up. [quote]

You are wrong. Once a student is identified as having a behavior-related disability, which could be anything from ADD to Schizophrenia, federal law makes expulsion very difficult. Most manifest determination hearings will find that virtually any behavior issue is related to the student's disability, and federal law (IDEA) protects that 'disabled' student's right to public education. Only in very severe cases can districts move to provide unruly students an education in an alternate setting, at huge expense to the already financially strapped public school.

Students do get expelled without any medical determination. It doesn't take an act of congress to expel. But to the extent that there are laws that tie the hands of teachers/administrators, those laws need to be changed.

Where do you people get this attitude that nothing can be done? We used to do the common sense stuff to enforce discipline. There is no law that says the schools and teachers have to put up with this crap from unruly kids.

You do bring up a good point about the fact that kids who need help don't get it because of the expense. Schools and parents often work together to hide the real problems, and the kid suffers. But simply setting aside a special class for the bad kids doesn't add much, if any, to the expense. So at the very least, do that. Just grouping all the bad kids into one class would improve the level of education for the good kids by leaps and bounds!

In the case where the parents refuse to have their kid tested, there is no grounds for invoking IDEA. So the threat of expulsion works to get parents to do what they ought to do.

Without any change to the law, schools can be much more aggressive about removing disruptive children than they are now. Show me the law that says you can't reserve one class for the bad kids. Show me the law that says you can't have a reform school. Show me the law that says you can't suspend students more often. These are options available today that most schools simply don't exercise.

But when you do take responsibility for discipline in the school some amazing things will happen.

* Parents of ADD students will agree to get their kids tested and medicated if needed. Better to have them labeled "ADD" than to have them expelled or sent to reform school.

* Parents of suspended students will work harder to make sure they behave next time. Frankly, parents want the free babysitting that school provides. A suspended kid really messes up the parents' world.

* Kids start to behave. When the kid knows that his behavior has no consequences, his behavior doesn't change. Even kindergarten kids learn this very quickly.

* Teacher morale is better.

* The classroom is more peaceful and kids actually learn!!!

[quote]Public schools need fixing wrote:

There is no law that says the schools and teachers have to put up with this crap from unruly kids.[quote]

Yes there is. Check with the United States Department of Education for details.

[quote]Schools and parents often work together to hide the real problems, and the kid suffers. [quote]

WTF?? Yes, we are all in collusion to prevent kids from getting what they need. That is why we are educators. WTF?

[quote]In the case where the parents refuse to have their kid tested, there is no grounds for invoking IDEA. So the threat of expulsion works to get parents to do what they ought to do.[quote]

Very few parents refuse to have kids tested. Most parents want the extra services, and the federal protections that IDEA offers a kid with an identified disability.

[quote]Show me the law that says you can't reserve one class for the bad kids. [quote]

IDEA-with some limited exceptions.

[quote]Show me the law that says you can't have a reform school.[quote]

IDEA-with some limited exceptions.

[quote] Show me the law that says you can't suspend students more often. [quote]

IDEA-with some limited exceptions.

[quote]These are options available today that most schools simply don't exercise.[quote]

You are a simplistic fool who knows little of the workings and challenges of today's public schools. Teachers and administrators are out there working their asses off to do what is in the best interest of kids. It's not easy.

I have. You are working this from the wrong angle. You are using IDEA as an excuse. And frankly, you are part of the problem.

If the kid was identified with a medical problem and falls under IDEA then the kid can often be removed from the classroom for that reason. If the kid was not identified then the kid can be expelled. Either way the kid is gone.

The only time IDEA keeps an unruly kid in the classroom is when the kid has a diagnosis AND the LD does not warrant self contained special ed. In that case there is more work to do in order to remove the kid. But it can still be done.

That's right. I've seen it happen more than once.

That's bull. I've seen parents refuse to have kids tested and I've seen schools drag their feet on the matter - sometimes for years until it's too late. In fact, I've seen this behavior in parents at both title I schools and the fancy private school. Denial is quite common.

And you are hiding behind the IDEA law as if it applies to everything. Being married to teacher, I know good and well how hard they work. Today our teachers are working harder than ever and getting worse results. Obviously, things need to change and discipline is only one of the problems.

What I don't understand is why teachers won't stand up to administrators who refuse to deal with behavior problems. And I also don't understand why parents let one unruly kid ruin the education of the rest of the class. The first step to bring about change is to simply demand it.

[quote]Public schools need fixing wrote:

If the kid was identified with a medical problem and falls under IDEA then the kid can often be removed from the classroom for that reason. If the kid was not identified then the kid can be expelled. Either way the kid is gone.

The only time IDEA keeps an unruly kid in the classroom is when the kid has a diagnosis AND the LD does not warrant self contained special ed.[quote]

Wrong again. And again. On nearly all counts. You are hopelessly confused. I give up.

You do sound like someone who has had a difficult experience dealing with the school system around behavioral disabilities. I would encourage you to find an advocate who knows the law well, or consult with a local special education director for clarification on these topics if this is an on-going issue.

Good luck.

absnp wrote:

[quote]Public schools need fixing wrote:

If the kid was identified with a medical problem and falls under IDEA then the kid can often be removed from the classroom for that reason. If the kid was not identified then the kid can be expelled. Either way the kid is gone.

The only time IDEA keeps an unruly kid in the classroom is when the kid has a diagnosis AND the LD does not warrant self contained special ed.[quote]

Wrong again. And again. On nearly all counts. You are hopelessly confused. I give up.

You do sound like someone who has had a difficult experience dealing with the school system around behavioral disabilities. I would encourage you to find an advocate who knows the law well, or consult with a local special education director for clarification on these topics if this is an on-going issue.

Good luck.

I double-checked with my wife who is certified in special ed. She has vast experience with these issues and has fought to get kids what they need. She says I'm 100% right.

In fact, if the kid's specific disability is not related to the unruly behavior, then the kid can still be removed. Though in that case you need a hearing to determine if the disability is related to behavior or not.

It would help if you backed up your assertions with facts instead of just claiming I'm wrong.

And btw, you've got me all wrong. I've never had a problem with a school system because I send my kid to a private school where these things aren't broken. I just wish everyone else's kid had the same advantage.

absnp wrote:

[quote]Public schools need fixing wrote:

If the kid was identified with a medical problem and falls under IDEA then the kid can often be removed from the classroom for that reason. If the kid was not identified then the kid can be expelled. Either way the kid is gone.

The only time IDEA keeps an unruly kid in the classroom is when the kid has a diagnosis AND the LD does not warrant self contained special ed.[quote]

Wrong again. And again. On nearly all counts. You are hopelessly confused. I give up.

You do sound like someone who has had a difficult experience dealing with the school system around behavioral disabilities. I would encourage you to find an advocate who knows the law well, or consult with a local special education director for clarification on these topics if this is an on-going issue.

Good luck.

And if you know so much, answer me this. I'm sure you know of kids who are not ADD, but rather just BAD. Since this kid doesn't fall under IDEA in any way, shape, or form, what keeps the school from removing that kid from the classroom? Be honest.

O.K., I was hoping I was done here, but here we go...

BTW, is your wife a CURRENT Special Education Teacher, or just one of those teachers who got endorsed in special ed for marketing purposes? From the perspective of an average teacher, the laws protecting kids with behavioral disabilities can appear simplistic and straight forward. They are not.

Regardless, I'm sure your wife is a lovely woman and cares very much about the children she works with, however, I have vast experience working with special education teachers who consult with me on a regular basis because it is difficult for teachers to keep up with the ever- changing interpretation of special education case law. They are supposed to be teachers after all, not attorneys.

If you had ever been on the school side of a due process hearing concerning the removal of a student with a behavioral disability from the general education environment, you would realize how tricky these issues can be, and why administrators are so cautious in removing children from classrooms and schools.

Public schools are mandated to provide an appropriate education for students in the 'least restrictive environment' unless they can provide data (evidence-based support) that indicates that the child cannot progress educationally in that environment. In most states, with the exception of behaviors associated with weapons or drugs, many steps are required by the school district to get to the point of removal from the classroom, much less the school. A pattern of behavior needs to be documented, testing if indicated or requested, documentation that interventions to target the students behavioral needs must be collected, and we're assuming that the school district has a better place for that child to go if he or she is removed. Schools can be held financially liable in court if this process is not adhered to when a child is removed.

Where exactly is it that you think these kids go when they are removed? These students are the responsibility of the school district no matter where they are placed, until they move out of the boundaries of the school district. That means BD classroom, alternative school, juvenile detention center (teachers have to go there), or inpatient mental health facilities if needed. School districts are responsible for the costs of educating kids in any of these placement options, and if that is what the child needs, the district finds the money. Lack of available funding is not an adequate defense in court on these issues.

I am primarily referring to kids with IDEA protections here, but again, remember that when it comes to behavioral disabilities, it takes very little to qualify a student under this disability classification if there is any kind of pattern of problem behaviors, and a diagnosis of any mental health issue (easy enough to get from local doctor) is practically a shoe-in for special ed support.

And BTW, not all school districts are large enough to have behavior disorder classrooms in every school, or even in the district. Sometimes there is not an easy alternate setting choice for a student.

Based on more recent special education case law, it behooves a school district to use caution when expelling any student, not just students with IDEA protections. As I mentioned earlier, even a history of mental health issues can be used by a parent in the court system to argue against suspension or expulsion.

I hope this helps. As I said before, schools deal with a lot of challenges both in and out of the classrooms. I have a lot of respect for the teachers who come in every day and try to make it all work for kids. If your wife is not currently working in the field of special education I can understand her comments. If she is, good for her, these teachers are saints, but she may want to brush up on some recent case law.

And now back to running...

Thank you for finally providing a coherent answer.

Believe it or not, I already knew almost everything you said, but at least this time you said it well. I can't tell you how many times 'least restrictive environment' has come up in my household.

And at least we finally agree that these kids can be removed, even if in your world it only happens in theory. We simply need to see that it happens more often. Claiming that it's just too hard doesn't help anybody. Yes, some laws need to be changed too.

And this gets back to my original point, which is that these things must be changed. You have to come at it from the other angle. The problem is that nobody is protecting the rights of the good kids. If you are going to argue that the school's hands are tied because the law provides for the 'least restrictive environment' for the brat then you have to also consider that the very presence of the brat puts the rest of the class in a 'more restrictive environment'.

As I have said before people are looking for schools to change but in my opinion the school cannot change until other things outside the school changes. First off we need to change laws and that has to come from some politicians that actually understand schools and what is happening. Secondly what needs to be done is parents need to change. They need to not blindly see their children as saints and try to do what is best for their kids. Instead of making excuses many times punishment is what is needed.

On a second note I would like to address the special education topic. This is one of the worst things that has happened to schools. It is entirely to broad and protects just about everyone. I truly believe that just about any child if they work the system hard enough can be considered special ed. Not only does this hurt the education of the entire school system but I believe that it does a disservice to the children themselves later on in life. Do they expect when they get a job to be able to say oh my IEP says that I only have to do 50% of assignments or that I get extra time because of my IEP. We need to teach kids to work with their disabilities to be successful and not use them as excuses.

Blown Away wrote:

Do they expect when they get a job to be able to say oh my IEP says that I only have to do 50% of assignments or that I get extra time because of my IEP. We need to teach kids to work with their disabilities to be successful and not use them as excuses.

I agree with everything you said except the extra time part. Sometimes the extra time is warranted. I know that in the case of dyslexia, you have a student who is fully capable of doing the work but they just need extra reading time. To they dyslexic, giving the kid extra time is just like allowing the kid with astigmatism to wear glasses.

Trust me, kids with dyslexia do learn to work with their disabilities and go on to be very successful later in life as long as they get proper remediation early on. They typically have higher IQ scores than the general population and they go into fields where fluent reading is not such a hindrance. Some of our greatest scientists and artists such as Leonardo Da Vinci and Albert Einstein were dyslexic. Dyslexics tend to have a gift for spacial reasoning, but at the same time they are poor readers.

The problem is if they don't get help then they end up labeled as dumb. Some are able to tough it out on their own, but many dyslexics never recover from schools that mis-label them and basically throw their lives away.

1.Econ

2.Logic

3.Philosophy

4.Geography

5.Religion (trickier)

jean wrote:

sensimilla wrote:

School administrations need to not put such an emphasis on getting adequate test scores for the entire student body. This problem starts with the state that puts a benchmark for schools to make. When all the emphasis is put on passing tests (which in my opinion are not a true measure of intelligence) the learning process is forgotten.

Well, at present the State educators are hamstrung by the so-called No Child Left Behind act. They *must* arrange for testing of their kids!

Education--true *education*--of schoolkids would have a chance to improve significantly if NCLB were repealed, but because of its name (yes, that alone) the act's repeal is unlikely. The irony is that, for all the emphasis (and teaching time) that's been put on it, the kids' test-taking ability has, on average, improved very little.

I was surprised that this thread went this long before someone jumped on the 'blamed NCLB' bandwagon. Of course, our school system was the envy of the world before NCLB, right?

Blowing Rock Master wrote:

BTW, the correct alternative way of writing 17 x 19 would be 9 x 7 + 9 x 10 + 10 x 7 + 10 x 10.

Why is this *the* correct way? There are infinite correct ways. Were I doing the problem in my head, I'd do 17*20 - 17. But then there is almost no situation that I'd do something like this in my head. I always have a pen/pencil handy and a scrap of paper in which case I'd do it the old fashion way.

More to the point, thinking quantitatively is a useful skill. Simply being able to frame the question differently is what is important. We don't require calculus for medical school because calculus is used intensively by doctors (it's not). We require it because it shows the student has reached a level of quantitative skills that is useful in the profession.

Public Schools Need Fixing,

I agree completely with what you are saying I probably worded it improperly. I agree with a lot of the IEP's students have and I think that they are valid. Many times I think that it would be better for the teachers to know them and the students not to because I find students just use them as excuses. In many many cases though they can help. Our job as educators should be teaching students to work with what they have and to excel at a job. Not to show them an abundance of excuses that will not benefit them.

I am sorry to say but virtually 0% of the relative success of your "top private school" is due to the teachers there or their policy. It is entirely due to the children that attend the school. For one you have huge selection bias (only motivated children/parents are drawn to private school). But more importantly you have a unrepresentative average socio-economic status. SES is one of the top determinants of school success and attending 4 year colleges. The public school I attended was always getting lauded for such great teachers because we had some 90% attending four year colleges and huge number of students going to Ivy schools. But the success had nothing to do with them. The school was located in a wealthy district and was located in a college town. Many of the students were from successful households and/or faculty children. The students who did not fall into these categories fell by the wayside. In fact the school despite its success has been cited by No Child Left Behind. So don't come in here sounding all high and mighty about your elite schools who know everything.

Public schools need fixing wrote:

My daughter attends one of the top private schools in the nation. My wife and I both attended public schools and my wife has taught in both public and private schools.

At my daughter's school, 100% of all graduates go on to attend a four year college. Many are National Merit Finalists and many end up in the Ivy League.

Private Schools arent Great wrote:

I am sorry to say but virtually 0% of the relative success of your "top private school" is due to the teachers there or their policy. It is entirely due to the children that attend the school. For one you have huge selection bias (only motivated children/parents are drawn to private school). But more importantly you have a unrepresentative average socio-economic status. SES is one of the top determinants of school success and attending 4 year colleges.

Actually, it's the education level of the parent, not SES that is the real predictor. But that is also correlated with SES, so you can use SES as a proxy. Your point is well taken.

However, when you say 0% is due to the selection of the children you are way off. It's a big factor for sure, but if you put those same kids in a weak school they won't do as well.

If schools don't make a difference at all then why have them? Just abolish all schools and leave it up to your so-called motivated children and parents to figure it out on their own.

Whether public or private, goods schools do make a difference and this is a discussion worth having.

Blown Away wrote:

Public Schools Need Fixing,

I agree completely with what you are saying I probably worded it improperly. I agree with a lot of the IEP's students have and I think that they are valid. Many times I think that it would be better for the teachers to know them and the students not to because I find students just use them as excuses. In many many cases though they can help. Our job as educators should be teaching students to work with what they have and to excel at a job. Not to show them an abundance of excuses that will not benefit them.

I couldn't agree more.

an aside: this is one of the best threads I have read on letsrun in terms of maturity, good arguments, and well thought out responses

LOL. I think they are just fishing off the wrong pier.