look at this garbage
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank13.html
says coe NEVER exceded 50 miles per week
Does anyone take Horwill seriously?
look at this garbage
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank13.html
says coe NEVER exceded 50 miles per week
Does anyone take Horwill seriously?
Some of his stuff is a bit extreme but there is the occasional gem of good advice...he WAS a world class coach, no doubt about that.
silly old fossil wrote:
Sidenote - Coe ran Commonwealth Games once (1990) in four opportunities.
Top British, Kenyan, Australian and New Zealand athletes regularly ignore the Commonwealth Games. Please don't bother to post exceptions, but it's hardly uncommon for the elite to dismiss the meet.
someone who reads wrote:
Some Canadian wrote:Not in the Moscow 800.
use your head next time. they were talking about fastest times, not individual races. they all beat each other at SOME point.
NO.... REALLY?!?!?! YOU THINK!?!?! I DIDN'T REALIZE! THANK YOU YOU ARE SO SMART FOR SHOWING ME YOUR SMART PERSON THINKS THANK YOU DERRRRR!!!
And in terms of PR's "faster than Ovett always" is still wrong. Ovett has a faster 2 mile PR, and being older, had ALL faster PR's than Coe until Coe became older. And then there was the period when they swapped mile WR's back and forth.
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
Some of his stuff is a bit extreme but there is the occasional gem of good advice...he WAS a world class coach, no doubt about that.
Can you elaborate on this?
Some Canadian wrote:
Don't flatter yourself; I'm not going to give you grammar advice unless you ask for it politely.
And that's "Some Canadian" to you.
Also, I found it amusing that after your little tirade you concluded with this little jewel:
"Too many touchy people who can't handle someone correcting their mistakes."
One word: hypocrite.
I don't see your problem with Deano. If you don't like Coe, fine, no problem. We all have favorites or villains. But I think Deano's a good guy and a strong fan. He always backs his opinions with facts and never goes ad hominem unless provoked, and then rarely. He's scrupulously fair to people who disagree. He also provides a lot of context on the Coe-Ovett-Cram era. Disagree all you want but respect his expertise and persona.
not a coe fan wrote:
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:Some of his stuff is a bit extreme but there is the occasional gem of good advice...he WAS a world class coach, no doubt about that.
Can you elaborate on this?
which part?
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank.htmlhis stuff is extreme sometimes-fasting to lose weight, back to back to back days of high intensity.
On the other hand, his thoughts about how much runners are supposed to weigh makes sense (even if he suggests an extreme way to get there), his 4 second rule is fairly useful and accurate, and his ideas on 800m training and increasing VO2 max make sense for the most part as well. I also like his take on crash training, although that could almost go under the extreme category.
World class coach? Tim Hutchings got 4th in world cross country, and ran 13:10ish for 5000m as well (I think)
World class coach or not, he's not been the full shilling for about 30 years now.
Er... wrote:
silly old fossil wrote:Sidenote - Coe ran Commonwealth Games once (1990) in four opportunities.
Top British, Kenyan, Australian and New Zealand athletes regularly ignore the Commonwealth Games. Please don't bother to post exceptions, but it's hardly uncommon for the elite to dismiss the meet.
The exceptions are the ones that DON'T compete in the Commonwealth Games....please name them.
not a coe fan wrote:
Let's just say Coe was lucky to be selected in the 1500 in 84. And at the Games Cram, best in the world in 83 and 85, was injured and Ovett couldn't breathe properly. Coe was fortunate.
In 80, if Bayi had run the 1500 Ovett would have won. Plus Ovett was haing domestic problems in between the 8 and the 15.
I am sick of hearing that no one touched his 800 record for 16 years. Cruz all but equaled it three years after Coe set it.
I am sick of hearing that Coe hit someone else's arm in the final of the 800 in LA, and that he may have won. Cruz made the whole field look second rate. He pulled away easily down the striaght. And had he not run a stupid race in 88 would have won in Seoul.
Coe has many times contradicted himself about what training he did. This has been misleading. If you don't want to say what training you do at least be honest about it and don't say anything (like Kipketer).
Coe has run under 1.43 twice. He ran out of his skin once or twice. He was essentially a 1.43/44 runner for his career. Kipketer was a 1.41 (4 times) and 1.42 (many times) runner. Clearly superior.
Funny, Bob Parks of Eastern Michigan used to claim Earl Jones would have beat Coe for the Silver in 1984 if he hadn't hit his arm.
But no one was beating Cruz. Coe ain't no way was coming back on him in the stretch.
But in the 1500-one of the greatest RACES ever run. 3:32 in the Olympic Final. 1:49 last 800 (correct me if I'm wrong). And three gear changes in the last 250. A masterpiece, albeit against an off form Cram, a sick Ovett, no Aouita, and Scott shitting the bed. Still at least it looked dominating.
Coe's splits were
58.94 400
1.56.92 800
2.39.28 1100
2.53.21 1200
3.32.53 1500
so 1.35.6 last 700
which is 1.49.2 pace so, yes, you are right.
It was a great run for sure. I am not doubting that.
I don't have a problem with Dean either.
Coe was great - but a little overrated in my view and luck was with him.
Vasalla ran quicker last 800 in Munich, ElG a lot quicker last 800 in Athens. Elliott ran a 3.35 on a dirt track in 1960. Ryan would run the last 800 that quick when he ran a WR. Coe's was a great effort but not uncommon amongst other very elite athletes.
Agreed. Coe was not coming back on Cruz in the stretch of the 8. But Coe's 1500 didn't just look dominating, it was an olympic record. Probably the last great pre-EPO/etc 1500m runs of the games.
Deano's comments re the 1988 situation was correct. He was selected at 800 and then deselected because he had had a few poor years.
Ultimately it was silly that Cram and Elliott were picked for 2 events and Coe for none. He deserved either a 800 or 1500 place and not both but judging by his form at around the time of the Games, I think he could have just about won either race and would have certainly medalled.
I'm more of a Ovett and Cram fan but acknowledge in terms of Olympics and world reecords that Coe has the superior record.
He only ran two very fast 800s - the world records but he never attackd the event apart from in those world records and after the 1:41.76, I'm not sure he was ever in that shape again.
I agree Cruz gets overlooked because he didn't quite go faster. He had a much better series of times and was a level up on Coe in 1984 at 800. However, don't think anyone could have beaten Coe at 1500 that year.
not a coe fan wrote:
In times yes. The race in Moscow suited Coe right down to the ground. Cram had a bad calf. Better tactically that Cram? How do you work that out?
I think you've mixed up your Olympics here. Cram was not a factor in Moscow. He made the finals, sure, but as a 19 year old who was frankly amazed to have made it that far. He was not yet in the same league as Coe or Ovett. He'd say so himself. In fact, I'm pretty sure he HAS said so himself.
I say Coe was better tactically because he showed over his long career that he could win a race from any position. The front, the back, etc. Cram had one tactic: The big long drive to the finish over the final 400 meters. Only in his best 2 years could he really kick with anyone.
Actually I think that Ovett was tactically better than both of them.
Cruz ran 3 hundredths slower than Coe. And yes I have heard the timing when Coe did was dodgy. It failed. I heard that directly from Cruz's coach and you can find reference to it on the net.
Are you telling me now that Luiz de Oliveira, a Brazilian coach was there, in Florence when Coe set his world record? Wow! That's a new one to me. Who was he doing there? Cruz wasn't in the race. Cruz hadn't even gone to Oregon at that point. Please, show me the net references you mention.
What you really mean, of course, is that he heard about it from someone else. Do yourself a favor, go actually read up on the subject. The timing equipment worked fine for Coe's race. The photocells which record times down to the thousandth of a second had him as 1:41.724 and 1:41.727. The hand timing had him as fast as 1:41.6 - TWICE. The anger and confusion was over why Coe's manual return of 1:41.6 was not forwarded as the official time instead.
The point is, his time wasn't light years ahead a is often said. He ran marginally faster than Cruz once (or we think he did). People forget Cruz.
The point is mistaken. After that world record, the average of Coe's best 5 times was 1:43.27 - faster than any other man in history had run ever for the distance. Yes, he really was light years ahead of everyone else. So then, Cruz came along 3 years later and go really close in one race, but that just puts both him and Coe light years ahead of everyone else.
Take a look at the Cruz's run in LA - Kiprotich ran the same race and came last - off the suicidal pace. Look at how Barbosa ended up.
Had Coe run a different race there is no guarantee he would have won the 800 in Moscow.
There is no guarantee of anything. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. That was kind of my point. You can't base how great someone is off of how they MIGHT have done. Only off of what they actually did.
(Regarding Coe somehow keeping place in the LA 800 by supposedly "hitting" Earl Jones arm)
YOu have to do a little more reading
I read quite a bit. I certainly don't base my opinions on a rumor I heard once. I've watched the video of the race enough times to know what bunk this is. So please, just point me to the reference of Coe's arm hitting Jones to keep his place please. We can start with an account from.... oh I don't know... Jones himself?
I never said they don't count. Cruz ran an amazing series of races in LA. Both Cruz and Coe ran 1.41.7 in what appears to be a one off for both of them. Kipketer ran 1.42 on his own indoors looking like he was jogging.
Coe's 1:41 broke his OWN world record. Coe's best 5 times averaged faster than anyone had ever done. Coe and Kipketer are not even the same era and comparing them is pointless. Are Coe, Ovett, and Cram diminished by what El Gerrouj did? Of course not.
Merry Christmas!
The same to you.
sigh..
I wasn’t mixing my races up. Moscow suited Coe. In ’84 Cram had am injury – calf. Fair call on the tactics. But in ’85 perhaps no one could beat Cram.
I was telling you Cruz’s Coach, Luiz de Oliveira, told me. I never said he was there. Where did you get that from? I am sure he was keen to get all the details and looked into it himself. I don’t know him. I met him once at a coaching conference and he was questioning the timing. Just saying what he told me. I have read the details myself but can’t be bothered looking into it. How can you accept two hand times of 1.41.6 – you have to add more than .13 to a hand time
Yes, they were both light years ahead. Perhaps Snell’s run on grass goes close – very close. So now we have three. The point is he wasn’t way ahead of everyone for 16 years. Cruz was in the same era. He didn’t come along a decade later.
I don’t know what you are talking about with the keeping place stuff.
Very clever of you to “average” his five best times. – two of those were way better until Cruz came along (in the same era) and with a better 800 m record in the Olympics.
I think you can compare runners from a different era. Ovett did. He called Kipketer the best 800 m ever. And as you would know, he would have a very objective view :) as would
de Oliveira with the timing.
I don't need to accept the hand time of 1:41.6. Neither do you. I am saying neither I, nor you, nor Luiz de Oliveira (nor anyone for that matter) has any reason to doubt the official time of 1:41.73 because every single time recorded on Coe had him at least that fast. The two photocells as well as 3 hand timed values. I only mention the two hand timed values because even if one were to decide to (irrationally) "throw out" the photocells, the other times are as fast or faster.
I'm not the "clever" one who averaged Coe's best 5 times. That was David Miller and it illustrates the point fairly well.
I never said you couldn't compare people from different eras. Of course you can. I said it was pointless. When they are not contemporaries and don't race each other, all the rest is speculation, particularly when their best times are less than a tenth of a second apart.
If you are trying to win a race, you can only race the guys who show up. If you are going for a world record, you can only aim to beat the fastest time that has ever been run.
You can point to Kipketer's fast times and tell me how he was "jogging" a 1:42, yet for all that, his Olympic 800 record is worse than Coe's. Coe has 2 Olympic 800 silvers, Kipketer has a silver and a bronze. His fastest Olympic 800 meter time is a full second slower than Coe's. Meanwhile, Coe was also busy winning 1500 meter gold medals at both Olympics.
Does this mean I think Kipketer is an inferior 800 meter runner to Coe? Of course not.
I think missing the 96 Olympics, a dose of malaria and injury contributed to Kipketer's Olympic Tally.
Of course, his time was around 1.41.73. I never denied that.
My basic points were (from memory) -
Coe wasn\'t 15 years ahead of the world as everyone makes out. Cruz ran within a a couple of inches of his WR, and beat him for Olympic Gold (same era). Snell ran 1.44.3 on grass in 1962. Coe was usually running 1.43/44. Same as other elite runners from that time - including 3 others from his own country. 2 of these guys ran 1.42. One of them never gets mentioned at all.
I read in forums (I can\'t remember which forum) some claim that the arm hitting was a factor in his loss in LA . I was saying it wasn\'t and am a bit sick of reading it. Coe didn\'t say, to my knowledge, that it was the reason but he has brought it up. I can\'t remember the video - you will have to trust me on it.
I also said that in 84 he was lucky to be running the 1500 and he was.
He ran a great race - no doubt. So are you an 800 m runner or a miler?
The thing about Cruz was he dominated in 1984. He ran 1.41.77 I believe in 85 (Johnny Gray ran 1:42.0 in that race right?)
But Cruz didn't have consistency over a career.
I think I see an argument developing:
Coe vs. Kipketer.
A dominating 800 runner (vs a miler as far as having a long career) is rare.
I think of Snell more as a miler. Juantarena, Coe, and Kipketer are the modern era gods of the 800.
These days stars have one great year(Remeber Andres Bucher?)
You can't take away Coe's long sprinting in 800-1000 meters. 1.41.71 lasted for over 15 years. The same with his 1000 record. An English guy with natural endurance that developed speed endurance, rather than the usual, a fast guy moving up.
That's always intigued me.
Then I misunderstood you. I thought you meant something about Coe's arm hitting that of Jones and that that was the reason that Jones didn't get Silver instead of Coe.
No, never have I ever heard that Coe claimed Cruz's arm somehow hit his and caused him not to take Gold. In fact, I will state categorically that Seb Coe has never made such any claim and I defy anyone to produce an account of Coe claiming such a thing. I suspect you simply encountered a thread of know nothings. I watched the race LIVE and have seen it many times since. I have read many accounts. Never have I seen Coe make such a claim.
Certainly the video shows no such thing. Cruz shadowed Koech and then blew everyone away. A 1981 Coe could have made a race of it. A 1984 Coe simply could not. And 3 years past his peak after a year of toxoplasmosis, who would expect him to.
Agreed on Kipketer and the 96 Olympics. On the other hand, his malaria came and went before he regained form in 1999.
I'm an 800 meter man.
FBooth - Cruz ran his 1.41 sometime in '84
Sigh... someone else in this thread said Jones may have got Silver. It wasn't me. I watched the race after I read the comment and I disagree with it.
Prior to 84 Coe's training times were as good as they were in 18 according to his Coming Back autobiography.
I have definitely heard/seen Coe in a video talk of hitting Jones's arm - I remember Coe saying he (Jones) had a very hard arm. He did stop short of saying that he could have won.
It will probably be on youtube somewhere.