Michael Phelps "most decorated olympian"...not necessarily "greatest"

Just wait for the Gay, Bolt, and Powell show to get things started for the REAL athletes (track and field), and people won't remember the imposters any longer.

Surely it is more impressive to win consecutive golds and consecutive games. ie Redgrave 5 golds in 5 olympic games, Tomkins may be about to achieve 4gold 1 silver after 6 olympic games. There must be others who have done this in sports other than rowing

Jefe in the CO wrote:

Phelps is the most decorated Olympian and therefore he is the greatest Olympian ever.

If garnering gold medals was so easy swimmers would dominate this gategory. But the list is full of XC skiers and T&F athletes.

If you want to be the greatest Olympian you'd better not pick a sport that gives you one or two shots every 4 years.

you are as dumb as the commentators.

Ok smarty pantsed I'll bite. In your mind, what is the definition of a great Olympian and, if you have the ability to take it one step further, what would be the requirements to be the greatest Olympian? All your petty biases aside of course...

pantsed wrote:

you are as dumb as the commentators.

if gold medals are symbols of greatness in average mall dwellers' eyes and phelps has more of them than anyone else (by the end of these games he could have 14 total, sick!) then a vast majority of people are going to consider him the greatest of the greats.

what he's done is by no means easy. bekele makes running 60s/lap for 12.5 laps look easy just as phelps making swimming look incredibly easy.

it's all in perception, but even without media trumpeting "GO(lympian)AT" most folks would form this opinion on their own.

I heard there was this Al Oerter guy that won four, consecutive discus gold medals (56, 60, 64, and 68 - an Olympic Record each time).

In 1980, after a 12 year retirement, Oerter returned to the 1980 US Olympic trials and finished 4th - just missing the Olympic bid - while setting his lifetime PR in the event - AT AGE FORTY-THREE!

Sadly, Oerter recently passed away. Too few people know about him. What a great champion.

This thread was shown on the NBC 4 news in LA. I was getting my car fixed and was watching a story on "bloggers" that dispute that Phelps is the greatest Olympian. They showed this thread, and one from the Huffington Post, I think.

This thread was on the news wrote:

This thread was shown on the NBC 4 news in LA. I was getting my car fixed and was watching a story on "bloggers" that dispute that Phelps is the greatest Olympian. They showed this thread, and one from the Huffington Post, I think.

Maybe they should have covered SI and espn where they are saying mostly the same thing. Espn has a video with some of the NBA guys, including Dwayne Wade calling Phelps "one of the greatest athletes of all time," but not THE greatest, and I think that's the main point.

I simply don't see what a running site should be calling a swimmer the greatest athlete of all time. We've had too many people like Nurmi, Carl, and Zatopec. Phelps has more medals because he has had more medal opportunities.

The other part of this (the WR part) is whether the WRs are from the swimmers or the technology:

Re the pool technology, much is made of the 10ft depth and splash-proof sides etc. Why on earth were these not installed decades ago - I can't believe it took until now for researchers to discover these innovations!

Phelps has had too many opportunities. A track/field athlete doesn't have many opportunities like Phelps. If you train for speed, you lose endurance, and if you train for endurance, you lose speed.

blaargh wrote:

TFG wrote:

Once swimming is done and T&F begins, the focus will be on T&F. Phelps will once again be mentioned at the end of the Olympic program as the Grand Pubah of the highlight reel, but the media will focus on such things as the 100m duel between Bolt, Powell and Gay, or Wariner going for the 400m world record, or the Oregon trio, etc.

Are they going to run the 400m four times? Once on the track in spikes, once on pavement in trainers, once on dirt in flats, and once on grass barefoot?

That could help a guy's medal count immensely.

I don't see what this has to do with anything that I said...

true that he's dominant. you can't make a solid argument that he's any more so than Micheal Jordan for instance (or if you want an olympian, go look through the history books), because there is no fair way to compare. Very few people swim competitively anyway, so that's another big point against him. What if some ping-pong player broke out at the olympics here and beat all comers in straight sets. Would you say he/she is the best olympian or athlete ever? I think most would not.

if you paid attention, I didn't say swimming is easy. It was clearly implied that it is easy for a dominant swimmer to get a bunch of medals. You can't argue against this. Look at how many swimmers have many, many medals. It would not be possible for a 10,000m track specialist, or most other athletes, to do the same. His 15 races obviously are not nearly as hard on the body as any distance running event.

This is one of the better arguments for him being the greatest . However, I think it's pretty clear that it is easier for a swimmer to do well in multiple events than for track athletes. This again is evidenced by how many swimmers medal in multiple events/strokes. You will not often see the same on the track (just for example). Every once in awhile, a Carl Lewis comes along, but it's not a given that you will have multi-discipline medalists, like it is in swimming.

ok, i think the thread is done for now. Some of you can make good arguments for phelps being the greatest olympian ever. that's fine. my only point is that you have to make a case for this--and it CANNOT be based solely on medal counts or world records...these both obviously are tossed around too much in swimming.

I'm with Pantsed. It's a good question though, what does make someone a great Olympian? I don't think that pure medal count is enough. Here is a non running comparison...if one of the gymnasts won gold in the team competition and in all of the individual events in the same olympics, that would be less medals, but I would argue that gymnast is just as good if not a better athlete. Although fewer number of gold medals, perhaps an even more impressive feat where each event requires a much different set of athletic skills. I am not saying that all Phelp's events are similar, however I do agree that the number and variation of swimming events allows for a distorted number of opportunities to prove oneself as the "best olympian."

p.s. i don't really think Phelps is getting tired...I think he can do it and I hope he does.

I'm with Pantsed. It's a good question though, what does make someone a great Olympian? I don't think that pure medal count is enough. Here is a non running comparison...if one of the gymnasts won gold in the team competition and in all of the individual events in the same olympics, that would be less medals, but I would argue that gymnast is just as good if not a better athlete. Although fewer number of gold medals, perhaps an even more impressive feat where each event requires a much different set of athletic skills. I am not saying that all Phelps events are similar, however I do agree that the number and variation of swimming events allows for a distorted number of opportunities to prove oneself as the "best olympian."

p.s. i don't really think Phelps is getting tired...I think he can do it and I hope he does.

First to pantsed - the comment made about the decathlete winning all of the events is not all that accurate. This guy would be the best at everything against people are, relatively speaking, mediocre at everything except a few events. Bottom line, the decathletes aren't Olympic quality in any of the events (maybe one or two) let alone Olympic medal quality. Cite one or two that have done it is fine, but that is not everybody in every event. Phelps has time and time again beaten the best at THEIR events. Somebody provided a list of the American swimmers that are just competing at the Olympics and there were maybe 2 or 3 that were competing in multiple strokes. This is in complete contrast to ALL of your assuming statements that MANY swimmers compete in many different strokes all the time. Provide some evidence other than your opinion to support facts you are trying to state.

I agree, if one gymnast won gold in the team competition, the individual all-around and the 4 individual events it would be an amazing feat and that would rank above Phelps' performance this Olympics, and this gymnast could easily be considered to have had the greatest Olympic performance ever. Now, if they did this in back-to-back Olympics then that would be the greatest Olympic Champion of all time (even if they "only" won 3 of the individual events or got 4 golds and 2 silvers or something like that it would be considered to top Phelps'). Phelps has won 6 golds and then backed that up with what is potentially 8 golds. IF (and thats a BIG IF) a gymnast does this, THEN they could be considered - but has one done this? And then, with everybody arguing that swimming isn't as popular or competitive as track - gymnastics probably isn't even as popular and competitive as swimming. And talk about needing a lot to practice - a pool is a little easier than finding rings, a pommel horse, parallel bars and a high bar with an open, springy floor to practice on...

I'm trying hard to understand this gibberish which is probably my bad but I've got Olympic fever (or Olympic flu-like symptoms) so here goes...

So now a worthy subject has to compete in events that are hard on the body like distance running? I've spent a good part of my life running and even I find this laughable. Hard on the body would be wrestling, decathlon, soccer, gymnastics and the list goes on and on until you get to distance running followed closely by swimming. I think I know what you're trying to say here but it is sort of out there dontcha think?

You are misguided here pantsed. It is very "easy" (to use your vernacular) to win multiple medals in T&F. Phelps displaced two T&F athletes when he got to 10 golds. Every Olympics and World Championship there are numerous T&F athletes who are multiple winners. The all time medal winner; a gymnast. So, if I may use your logic, before Phelps there were 2 T&F athletes and one swimmer with 9 golds. Therefore it is easier for T&F athletes to be multiple Gold Medal winners. Oh wait, here comes Phelps with 11. Therefore it is easier for swimmers to be multiple Gold Medal winners. You can't argue against this (sorry I couldn't help myself even though it is such an asinine thing to write).

Anyway I think that we've found the source of your frustration with Phelps. It's not that you don't think that he isn't a great athlete or maybe even the greatest Olympian; it's that you are bitter because he has more opportunities to medal than a distance runner does. In this we can agree. But your bitterness leads you to believe that it is easier for Phelps to do what he is doing. Nothing could be further from the truth. He is doing what has never been done in the history of Mankind and this, in and of itself, makes him the greatest Olympian.

Let’s take a look at T&F version of Phelps. Bekele will probably win the 5k and 10k at these Olympics. If there were DMR's or a 4x1600 or a cross country races he would win those two. He could be a 6 time gold medal (counting team medals also) winner if given the opportunity. That would be an astounding accomplishment and those of us in the running community would take great pride in this. We could look at the swimmers and say, "nah, nah, nana boo boo". But it would not equal what Phelps is doing today. For Bekele to achieve Phelps-like status he would have to win the 1500 and/or the steeplechase also. Then, and only then, would Bekele be the greatest Olympian ever.

Jefe in the CO wrote:Let’s take a look at T&F version of Phelps. Bekele will probably win the 5k and 10k at these Olympics. If there were DMR's or a 4x1600 or a cross country races he would win those two. He could be a 6 time gold medal (counting team medals also) winner if given the opportunity. That would be an astounding accomplishment and those of us in the running community would take great pride in this. We could look at the swimmers and say, "nah, nah, nana boo boo". But it would not equal what Phelps is doing today. For Bekele to achieve Phelps-like status he would have to win the 1500 and/or the steeplechase also. Then, and only then, would Bekele be the greatest Olympian ever.

This is the stupidest paragraph I've ever read in my life.

I was thinking of the same case, myself.What I concluded was that the all-around gymnast certainly had case for being as impressive an athlete as does Phelps, assuming s/he's as dominant an all-around gymnast as is Phelps (think of someone like Nadia Komenich).

You're right. After writing it I immediately realized my mistake; Ethiopia would never win the DMR or the 4 x 1500. Sorry my bad.

Johnny Weismueller wrote:

This is the stupidest paragraph I've ever read in my life.