5 Key Marathon Workouts

More questions:

1) What do you mean by marathon pace? Do you mean: a) the pace at which I ran my last marathon, b) the pace I should be able to run for the marathon, given my 10k/half-marathon performances (assuming I am doing proper marathon mileage and workouts), c) my goal pace for the marathon, or d) something else?

2) Is it ever acceptable to run slower than 80% of MP? I'm particularly thinking of the second runs of the day, and also 1-2 pure recovery days per week. ie, my weekly schedule might look something like:

Sun: 24 at 80-85%

Mon: 10 at 75%/ 5 at 75%

Tues: 13 at 80-85%/ 5 at 75%

Wed: 13 at 80-85%/ 5 at 75%

Thurs: 4 wu, 10k tempo at 105%, 4 cd/ 5 at 75%

Fri: 10 at 75%/ 5 at 75%

Sat: 13 at 80-85%/ 5 at 75%

So every afternoon is a chance for pure recovery, and Monday and Friday are chances for pure recovery.

Or should I be able to recover completely at 80% of MP? That pace does feel easy, but often I feel more recovered if I do a run at 75% of MP or even 70%.

3) Some people think that it's only possible to run 4 or 5 quality marathons over a person's lifetime, so it's best to be like Geb and save those marathons for late in your career when you have already improved as much as possible at 1500m-10k.

But other people say that "you are either training for the marathon or you aren't." ie, if somebody is 26 years old and focusing on the 5k-half marathon range because his main goal is to run a fast marathon when he is 30, he is misguided. If his only goal is a fast marathon, he should be focusing on the marathon.

Which view do you support?

I think the answer is that athletes should run one marathon and one track season per year in their 20s, and maybe eventually transition into 2 marathons per year by their 30s. But you seriously are the expert here so your opinion is the one that counts.

I don't think you should get too worked up about pace on your recovery runs. As long as it's not too fast, you'll probably be okay. Just don't go TOO slow! You should feel GOOD, though.

MPR, who do you coach?

Marathon training is very tricky. I remember reading Stefano Baldini's long run was 30k (18.6mi). So the 24 mile run isn't necessarily essential to be a successful distance runner, it can be done other ways too.

Don't manipulate the Baldini statement either. He will cover more than 20 miles on certain days but its broken up in multiple runs, but this distance is the most he covers for a single run.

MPR - You've been asked a couple times who you are. Since you are taking an authoritative stance here, I think an answer to this question is in order, at least regarding your background and qualifications. Thank you.

check out my "training" section...still a work in progress.

http://www.geocities.com/sagecanaday/index.html

Pretty much the same long-run types of workouts....look at the Hanson's and Nate Jenkin's logs also if you get a chance.

I think this question is always out of order. Suppose he makes up a hugely successful, credible, yet un-authenticable educational background and coaching history. Shall his statements become more believable? They shouldn't.As reliable authentication is not available, better to assume everyone who posts here is anonymous, and deal with it. This should force everyone to scrutinize the statements more thoroughly.

And? wrote:

MPR - You've been asked a couple times who you are. Since you are taking an authoritative stance here, I think an answer to this question is in order, at least regarding your background and qualifications. Thank you.

I choose not to tell you who I am or what my qualifications are beyond I am a certified coach with vast experience as a runner and a coach. I feel no need to as I am asking nothing of you and am not seeking any new coaching relationships beyond giving friendly free advice.

I could list for you my qualifications, education, and certifications and tell you about my career as a runner and as a coach. But I know coaches who have just a much education, have run times similar to mine as an athlete and have coached some elite level runners (although these runners didn't progress under them) and I think they are bad coaches (although nice people). So what does that tell you? Nothing.

Instead on this thread you have enough information from me on marathon training to judge my training approach for yourself. If you think it has merit then fine you can adopt some or all of it into your program. If you don't think it has merit then also fine, you can move on to another thread. For those who do think it has merit but want to ask follow-up questions then I'm happy to answer them within reason as I have been so far on this thread.

To the runner who keeps posting about 24 mile long runs not being necessary. We disagree then. Fine. Certainly we can both name examples on both side of this issue (as I stated earlier). But trial and error by myself, my athletes and many others has led me to my current opinion regardling long runs and how they are used in my programs. If you can do it differently and have success then good for you. Do what works for you.

MPR

TDWTFH,

My answers to your follow-up questions:

1) Generally in the sharpening phase we base our paces on a percentage of goal race pace. This should never be a huge jump from current levels of time (rather a slow gradual progression). If some reason it is a big jump or if the sharpening phase is rather long (greater than 10 weeks) we will divide the sharpening phase into 2 or more phases with the first phase being based on a slightly slower (or current) marathon time and progressing to goal pace based times in the second or last phase of sharpening. Example: if a runner recently ran a 2:36 in the spring and he is moving into a new cycle targeting an 2:34 at an early fall marathon then once he hits the 10 week sharpening phase of this cycle we'll be basing our paces on that 2:34 goal pace.

2) The 80-85% of marathon for easy runs is a general guide which most runners won't have a hard time following. I consider 75-80% of marathon pace to be a recovery zone used only after a race or very hard workout. I would not have a problem if a runner wanted to do his first run after a hard workout in the 75-80% of MP. But most of ther easy mileage (including easy paced long runs) should be in that 80-85% range.

3) I do not put artificial limits on runners such as "you only have 4-5 good marathons in you". Each runner is different. Certain runners have run dozens of quality marathons in their careers while some (Craig Virgin for instance) only have done 1 or 2.

I certainly think its possible to focus mainly on the marathon (Deek, Monti, KK, Rodgers, Seko)

from an early age (early to mid 20's) and have a long successful career. At the same time it is certainly possible to intermix shorter distance cycles (5k-10k), mixed in marathon cycles (i.e. Lopez, Abdi, Salazar).

There is "more than one way to skin a fish". So no sense thinking a one mold career path is necessary. Certainly guys like Sell and Beardsley took a different path to elite marathon levels than most people.

MPR

MPR:

I enjoy and benefit from your postings, thanks.

In an earlier posting, you referred to these stages:

Weeks 1-3: Active Recovery

Weeks 4-12: Base Building

Weeks 13-22: Sharpening

Weeks 23-24: Taper

In my case, i am in the midst of Base Building and its taking me to 70mpw - mostly easy miles except a 10k tempo run and 15-16 miler.

Now, regarding the Sharpening phase, you highlighted the 5 key workouts and you also said that you don't like doing the same workouts but rather prefer that the runners mix things up from week to week.

Assuming that i will only do 2 workouts per week in the Sharpening period - one will be of type (1) and (2) [24 miler at 80-85% of MP OR 10 easy + 10 at MP] and the other will be of (3)-(5).

My question is: how do i vary these over the sharpening period? can you pls map out a reasonable sequence for QualityWorkout#1 (long runs) and for QualityWorkout#2 (tempo/intervals)?

One other minor question: 10 mile Tempo run at 100 to 102% of MP -- do you go straight into that or ease into it?

MPR,

As a masters runner, would there be any tweaks to the basic plan for a 40+ year old?

I, for one, am greatly appreciative for your postings on this topic.

OR

OCD,

Thanks. A couple of notes I'd make on what you have described. First with a peak mileage of around 70 per week be careful on the longer workouts I have described. You may need give yourslef a break some weeks to avoid over training. A 24 mile run is 34% of your weekly mileage which is pushing the envelope. You may want to alternate one of the long run workouts (1 or 2) with a week in which you just run an easy paced 18-20 miles (or maybe a 2 weeks on 1 week off pattern - what ever works best for you). This gives you a 3rd long run to throw in to give you a nice mix.

On the mid-week quality day I would recommend getting in workouts 3-4-5 but you can mix in other workouts as well. A good substitute for the 10k tempo may be 4 x 2 mile, for the 10 mile tempo maybe 4 x 5k and for the 6 x mile maybe 10-12 x 1k. I like to work upwards in my weeks starting with the fastest pace workout (6 x mile), then the next week moving to the next fastest (10k tempo), then to the goal pace workout (10 mile tempo) and then repeating the sequence.

On each of these mid-week quality workouts I highly suggest a warm-up and cool-down jog. On the longer (and somewhat slower) ones such as the 10 mile tempo, the warm-up and cool-down can be a little shorter to limit total mileage. The way I recommend doing the 10 mile Tempo run at 100-102% of marathon pace would be: get in a 1-2 mile warm-up jog, then start into the run at marathon goal pace (100%) and then if you feel up to it increase the pace slightly the last few miles to closer to 102% of goal pace. Most people find that the first time they do the workout in the sharpening phase that the 10 miles at 100% is plenty hard enough but by the second, third or fourth time they do it they can easily boost the second half of the run 101-102% pace.

Hope this helps,

MPR

Older runner wrote:

MPR,

As a masters runner, would there be any tweaks to the basic plan for a 40+ year old?

I, for one, am greatly appreciative for your postings on this topic.

OR

Thank OR, I am glad I can help.

The workouts don't change even with age (we are all racing 26.2 miles) but what might change is the frequency. What I have found is that masters runners can often do the same workouts as the younger guys and gals it just takes them slightly longer to recover from it. So figure out what works best for you, if you need to add in an extra easy day between them then fine, or even taking a easier week every 3rd week.

MPR

So you would have a runner do workout (2) and (3) in the same week?

(2)= 10m EZ + 10m at MP

(3) = 10m at MP

isn't that too much MP in one week?

Also, you commented that the first time ppl do (3) they find it hard -- but then certainly they would find (2) hard!!

MPR wrote:

Most people find that the first time they do the workout in the sharpening phase that the 10 miles at 100% is plenty hard enough but by the second, third or fourth time they do it they can easily boost the second half of the run 101-102% pace.

MPR[/quote]

Not meaning to speak for MPR, but I saw that and figured my first crack at WO #2 would be something like 15 easy + 5 at MP and over 10 or so weeks of sharpening I'd work up to 10 easy + 10 MP. I know better than to try it right off the bat because I wouldn't be able to get out of bed for a week.

Widsith the Wide-Traveled wrote:

Not meaning to speak for MPR, but I saw that and figured my first crack at WO #2 would be something like 15 easy + 5 at MP and over 10 or so weeks of sharpening I'd work up to 10 easy + 10 MP. I know better than to try it right off the bat because I wouldn't be able to get out of bed for a week.

BINGO!

Generally I don't schedule workouts 2 & 3 in the same week.

MPR IS TINMAN. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

Dorothy always knows wrote:

MPR IS TINMAN. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!

Nope

Hi MPR,

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I'm a 2:38 Marathoner looking to improve. I actually have a hard time running 80% on my general runs due to leg soreness. If I force myself to then I have trouble the next day completing the next day's run. I generally do 85-110 per week. When I'm at 110 I find it harder to maintain those paces. Should I be concerned.

By the way thank you for the information that you already have given.