Haile Gebs 1995 5K World 12:44 youtube link

Henry Rono was a drunk! You don't think if he could have stayed sober and trained well that he could not have run much, much faster?

Fine, now I will enter your discussion. If all the East Africans are doped, with the disparity of times dropping and all, then what is your reasoning for why all athletes aren't?

Just because they run slower times? If you suspect one group, why not suspect all? After all, everyone's trying to get an edge.

I love this little sidebar on flight attendants and crab fisherman. First of all to compare those two professions in any way, shape or form is lunacy. Flying is still by far the safest mode of transportation. An Amtrak conductor or truck driver faces far more statistical risk than does a flying waitress. And how often have planes actually gotten hijacked in the last 25 years? 9/11 was a statistical blip. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'm guessing more flight attendants were killed on that day than in the combined total form the entire 5 or maybe even 10 years prior to that. Actually, if you think about it, a very high percentage of the people killed in the WTC on 9/11 were in the financial services industries. Does that mean that "stock broker" and "bond trader" are inherently dangerous professions?

As for crab fisherman, that truly is a dangerous job. I've been a sailor for over ten years, and have only seen 15-foot waves on the Great Lakes once. It's pretty scary to see a house-sized wall of water bearing down on you. These guys got out in 30-ft seas where the water temperature is sometimes barely above freezing. They do it in the dark, sometimes on very little sleep. Yeah, sure, that's comparable to pushing a beverage cart down the aisle of a 747 and handing out headphones on a 3-hour flight from Chicago to Denver.

Take some logic pills and go lie down, Alan.

I never said ALL east Africans are doped. I said that most of if not all of the best in world are doped (medal winners and world record holders). That would include a few non Africans as well, sprinters, jumpers, throwers, etc. Also, why is it that we are so quick to accept a sprinter, thrower, or cyclist as a doper but not the "poor little East African?"

Also, as far as the Alaskan crab fisherman things goes, you won't find a steady salary quote anywhere as their salary is purely dependant on the catch and the year. A captain of a vessel could and has earned upwards of $100k and a doctor could and has earned upwards of $100k. The term "doctor" is very broad while the title of "captain of a Alaskan king crab boat" is very narrow. It would not be hard to find a family practice doctor making around 100-150k as it would also not be hard to an example of a captain making 100-150k during a season. So, I bet I could find at least one instance where a family practice doctor, probably in the south, is making less than the captain of an Alaskan king crab boat. Going forward, if you break down the salary into an hourly wage the doctor's earnings go way down as the king crab fisherman's wage goes way way up, and even the flight attendant's wage goes way up as they typically fly only 65-90 hours a month. Also, sometimes what I say isn't as important as the point I'm trying to make which with the salary thing was: People in high stress, high inconvenience, and dangerous jobs can and do make a lot of money even very comparable to careers that require lots of education, degrees, etc.

Alan

You seem to have ignored my point.

60secsurge wrote:

I have seen many of your posts Sir Lance and I usually agree with them. I just haven't seen many people bring up the point about no Americans, Europeans etc breaking 13 and 27. The question being that if EPO is so rampant in distance running, why are there no non Africans doing this?

Yes they do. From what continent is Thari or Mouhamed Mourith ? Africa. Both did EPO positive. Despite Mourith changed citizenship to Belgium.

Viren and the Finns were on blood doping as the italians they were, some other runners were on amphetamines - that includes dutch Gerard Tebroke -Jos Hermans coach. Tebroke was younger than Hremans and did broke 5000m and 10000m Hermans PB after Hermans retired. He died in 90s due to past drug use. Tergat is still takes EPO on a regular basis but in small dosage just to be able to carry on hard training. Actually they use genetic manpulation.

The persent drug isn´t RPO no more or HG but to create to take a virus dose that creates more red cells and can´t be detected in the urine test but just in a skin sample. The IOC knows about it, simple the drug cheaters they are ahead.

There likely are a few Americans doping. The reason it may not be so rampant is because they are not over in Europe and do not have European managers and coaches. I believe the doping problem is mostly a European problem combining both cycling and track & field. The feeling seems to be if no one talks about it then it's not happening. It was like that in cycling forever. The origins of systematic doping, that is an assembly line process of having doctors administer and regulate the doping program as opposed to individuals doping themselves, looks to have started with the East German program. While that program was nationally run the offspring of that program is run by European agents. What we have seen since at least the late 80s/early 90s is an agent driven doping program both in cycling and track & field. The athlete, and thus the agent, will have far greater success under a systematic program regulated by doctors compared to an individual program regulated by the athlete themselves. This could explain some of the drug busts in cyclinge. Some teams have a team based doping program while other leave it up to the athletes themselves. So, if an athlete goes from a team with a one type of program to a team with a different type of program they could have a greater change of getting caught with the second team (Hamilton, Landis, going from US Postal to current teams).

Another reason you don't see many American dopers is because of USADA, American media, and American sportswriters. The magnifying glass is very strong in America. It's harder to get away with much in the US. One way around this could be training in remote locations, or going overseas to train. In cycling the former US teams (Motorola, Subaru, etc) were mostly made up of Americans, American coaches, American doctors, etc, but when US Postal/Discovery was founded they used a lot of European staff members, doctors, etc. It could be that they needed these European doctors, riders, etc, because they understood the drug culture in cycling much better than their American counterparts.

Let's not forget, Jos Hermens is as dirty as they come:

http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/01/index.html

http://www.oakridger.com/stories/080801/spo_0808010076.html

Could Bekele's Mombasa nightmare have been caused by the doping products he was taking?

...and Dr. Rosa's Kenyan athletes have also tested positive in the past:

http://www.rrm.com/archive03/062603n3.htm

In my book, any athlete associated with Jos Hermens or Dr. Rosa is doped.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

They were likely deleted because calling me names and cursing at me adds nothing to the discussion.

I think it's far more likely that you emailed the site's moderators and begged them like a little girl to remove the posts. I highly doubt that the operators spend dozens of hours monitoring literally hundreds of threads for anything disparaging. Hell, that would be a full time job (and probably 1/3 of the posts on letsrun.com would have to be taken down).

Like Walter said, the jig is up.

Back to the You Tube link....

Their is one there that shows Geb in the 1992 World Junior Championships 10000m finish...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6SXCQ7ba-U&mode=related&search=

As Geb passes another African(?) in the last 40 meters the other runner hits him quite hard knocking him a lane or so across the track. Anyone know who the striker was?

Braavo Furgi wrote:

Anyone know who the striker was?

Just scroll down and read the comments to the video.

"the runner that punched haile gebressalassie was josephat machuka, according to haile he clipped machuka with 200 meters to go. so machuka punched haile on the back. machuka was desqualified. all of this came out on runners world magazine"

p.s. this video is further confirmation that runners punch like girls... :)

Like Suzy Favor, Sarah Schwald and Meb (all former Jos athletes)?

I wouldn't doubt it. In a world in which it's almost required to dope to be at the top, it wouldn't be cheating because everyone else at the top is doing it.

Alan

What do you know about that world?

Mike Long lived and breathed it and wanted to part of drug cheats, and most of the runners at the top of the world counted him as a friend.

How would you know better than he would?

Mobile:

Haven't you learned anything yet about Alan? He knows everything.

Sure it is, just ask all the US sprinters, football players, baseball players, cyclists and more who have done PED's and never gotten caught. And oh yeah, ask OJ about hard it is to "get away with much in the US." (oh sure, they got him now, but he got away with murder already).

Good job Alan. You say Hermens is "dirty as they come", and your proof of that statment? A link to an absolute JOKE of a right-wing conspiracy blog (read the stuff on Canadian healthcare and Terri Schiavo there), and then a link to an article about how former Hermens athlete Szabo was thinking of boycotting running a 5000 because another athlete was supposedly on drugs. THAT was the best you could do to prove Hermesn is "dirty as they come" ? Wow, you really are losing it. Before I thought maybe some people were being hard on you, but not any more.

In the hottest conditions in World Cross history, where about HALF THE FIELD drops out, and runners are being carted away on stretchers left and right, Bekele drops out with one lap to go after running briliiantly, and you can only see a drug explantion?? Yup, you aren't the least bit biased. If he had won again, he's drugged, because how could he be that good? And if he drops out, he's drugged, because, well, he's drugged. Tough to argue with that "logic."

In my book, you were a dreamer who told everyone you were gonna make the Olympic Trials in 2004, and then shoot for the team (wasn't that right? Wasn't that your goal, and thus why you have the "2004" in your name?) When you didn't come close, and saw you have no shot, you became bitter and now take shots at all the best runners in the world. Could that be the root of your accusations?

Still waiting.

Runningart2004 wrote:

I wouldn't doubt it. In a world in which it's almost required to dope to be at the top, it wouldn't be cheating because everyone else at the top is doing it.

Alan

Every bit as childish.

The sad part is you think you are wiser.

Does every single Letsrun thread devolve into this idiotic "everyone good is on drugs" schtick? The "truth-tellers" here are nowhere near as smart as they pretend. Firstly, if "all the good runners" are on drugs, then we have what everyone seems to want: a level playing field. Secondly, the lack of historical perspective on all of this is pathetic. There is nothing particularly new in the aim to "improve" athletic performance--by better and smarter training techniques, and by other means. Stimulants were in use by the 1880s. Natural testosterone was in use by the 1920s. Synthetic testosterone and other things were in use by (at least) the mid-1950s. Blood-doping almost certainly was in use by the late 1960s. And so on. Any notion that there is some clear dividing line between an age of athletic "purity" and today's "dirty" era is nothing but wishful thinking. Was everyone in the past "dirty"? Of course not. Is everyone today "dirty"? Again, of course not. However, the real situation is far more complex and messy than any of the nay-sayers above can even begin to understand.

This thread began as a celebration of Geb's very real talent. That remains a fact--and a fact worth celebrating.

Wow, you've been watching too much "Deadliest Catch." We'll all just ignore the "crab fisherman make more than anyone" comment altogether.Pal, you're getting killed time and time again. It's time to let it go.