JOAQUIM CRUZ THE GREATEST 800 METER EVER

Yes, Cruz never ran with pacemaker.

Very funny.He is well and living in San Diego.

Was Kipketer an olymopic champion? No? Yes , you are right, no debate here. 1- Cruz 2- Coe 3-Snell 4-Kipketer. Believe me, in the World of track and field, BE AN OLYMPIC CHAMPION IS EVERYTHING!!!!

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree, and say that, despite never winning an Olympic gold medal (losing '96 to citizenship issues and '00 to a likely drug cheat) Wilson Kipketer is the greatest 800m runner the world has yet seen.

Brazilan Coelho wrote:

Very funny.He is well and living in San Diego.

That his clone, put in place by the Brazilian gov't to make the scandal go away and not be a big deal. They don't want the attention.

Joaquim would kill Wilson anytime, anyday......

thanks agberto

Kenya obstructed Kipketer's participation in the

OG in Atlanta 1996. He smoked Rodal in race earlier that year

at Bislett. I watched the race and he was running increcdibly

well there (as in the remainder of the season).

Kipketer is the best 800m runner ever. Full stop. Period.

Agberto Guimaraes wrote:

Joaquim would kill Wilson anytime, anyday......

Based on what?

In 1983, Cruz won two major 800m races (NCAAs and Nice), and picked up the bronze at Worlds.

1984 was by far his best year; I can't find any losses during the year, he won the Olympics in 1:43.00, ran sub 1:43 three times, including his AR 1:41.77, very good year.

1985 was good with three sub 1:43s BUT -- Steve Cram beat him in Zürich, 1:42.88 to Cruz's 1:43.28.

I can't find any results for 1986 or 1987.

In 1988 he was second in Köln (to Aouita) and second in Seoul (to Ereng).

Then from 1989 to 1993, all I can find are some occasional indoor results, but no major outdoor runs. From 1994 to 1996, his seasons bests were 1:46.96, 1:47.19 and 1:47.65.

It would seem that Cruz had one, perfect, better-than-everyone else year in 1984. Before that he was good, but beatable. The year after LA he was seemingly dominant, but Cram was able to get him in Zürich. Beyond that, he doesn't display dominance in any other years.

Wilson Kipketer, however, is a different story. The first year that Kipketer was world ranked, he had only two losses and was the #1 800m runner in the world. He lost twice: in Helsinki in Rodal, and in Brussels to Patrick Konchella.

1994

800 m

1:45.06 1 NYG New York NY 22 May

1:44.35 2 WG Helsinki 29 Jun

1:44.88 1 Athletissima Lausanne 6 Jul

1:43.29 SB (2) 1 Bislett Oslo 22 Jul

1:43.68 1 Herc Monaco 2 Aug

1:44.82 2 VD Bruxelles 19 Aug

1:43.64 1rA Göteborg 24 Aug

1:44.51 1 København 28 Aug

1:43.95 1r1 ISTAF Berlin 30 Aug

In 1995, Kipketer was undefeated, won the world title in Göteborg and run sub 1:43 twice.

1995

800 m

1:44.90 1 Kusoc Warszawa 16 Jun

1:44.67 1 Århus 29 Jun

1:43.98 1 Bislett Oslo 21 Jul

1:42.87 SB (1) 1 Herc Monaco 25 Jul

1:45.08 1 WC Göteborg 8 Aug

1:42.87 1rA Weltk Zürich 16 Aug

1:44.09 1 ASV Köln 18 Aug

1:44.38 1r2 VD Bruxelles 25 Aug

In 1996 Kipketer was undefeated again, running sub 1:43 SEVEN TIMES, including his world leading 1:41.83. Citizenship changes kept him out of the Olympics, yet his dominance was so extensive, that he was still ranked #1 in the world.

1996

1:44.06 1 Znam Moskva 7 Jun

1:43.13 1 EAA Byrkjelo 16 Jun

1:44.73 1 EAA Århus 20 Jun

1:44.33 1 ECp-2 Bergen 29 Jun

1:42.76 1 Bislett Oslo 5 Jul

1:42.51 1 Nikaïa Nice 10 Jul

1:42.59 1 Herc Monaco 10 Aug

1:42.61 1rA Weltk Zürich 14 Aug

1:42.77 1 VD Bruxelles 23 Aug

1:43.34 1 GP Berlin 30 Aug

1:41.83 SB (1) 1 GP II Rieti 1 Sep

1:42.17 1 Toto Tokyo 16 Sep

1997 was Kipketer's banner year. Not only did he go undefeated for a third straight season, he defended his world title in Athens, he broke 1:43 EIGHT TIMES, he broke 1:42 THREE TIMES. Whereas Coe and Cruz had only ever gone under the barrier once, Kipketer did it four times in two seasons. He equaled the WR in Stockholm, won the world title easily in Athens, then smashed the WR in Zürich (1:41.24) and then rebroke that WR in Köln. Not to be forgetten is possibly his greatest run ever: after breaking the indoor 800m WR in the opening rounds at the World Indoor Championships in Paris, Kipketer ran away from the field and smashed it again, becoming the first man ever inside 1:44 and 1:43 for the indoor 800m.

1:48.49i 1s3 WC Paris 7 Mar

1:43.96i 1h5 WC Paris 7 Mar

1:42.67i WR PB (1) 1 WC Paris 9 Mar

1:43.54 1rA GGala Roma 5 Jun

1:44.86 1 Kuso Sopot 14 Jun

1:44.03 1 Gaz Paris 25 Jun

1:42.61 1rA Athletissima Lausanne 2 Jul

1:41.73 1rA DNG Stockholm 7 Jul

1:45.54 1q4 WC Athína 5 Aug

1:43.38 1 WC Athína 8 Aug

1:41.24 1rA WK Zürich 13 Aug

1:42.77 1 Herc Monaco 16 Aug

1:42.20 1 VD Bruxelles 22 Aug

1:41.11 WR PB (1) 1rA ASV Köln 24 Aug

1:42.98 1 GPF Fukuoka 13 Sep

1998 saw Kipketer fall ill with Malaria, and thus had a very limited season, still posting a SB of 1:43.18, but finished poorly at the Budapest EC.

Kipketer came back in 1999, losing only indoors (second in Maebashi to Johan Botha), but remained undefeated outdoors for a fourth season, defending his World title for a third time and running inside 1:43 three more times.

1999

1:48.00i 1h1 WC Maebashi 5 Mar

1:46.76i 2s2 WC Maebashi 6 Mar

1:45.49i SB (3) 2 WC Maebashi 7 Mar

1:47.03 1 ECp-2 Pula 6 Jun

1:43.11 1rA Bislett Oslo 30 Jun

1:42.79 1rA GGala Roma 7 Jul

1:44.89 1 Golden Paris 21 Jul

1:42.57 1 Herculis Monaco 4 Aug

1:43.01 1rA WK Zürich 11 Aug

1:47.29 1h1 WC Sevilla 26 Aug

1:44.87 1s2 WC Sevilla 27 Aug

1:43.30 1 WC Sevilla 29 Aug

1:42.27 SB (1) 1 VD Bruxelles 3 Sep

1:44.03 1 ISTAF Berlin 7 Sep

1:43.55 1 GPF München 11 Sep

2000 was a poorly timed subpar year for Kipketer, posting few victories during hte outdoor season, though he finished the year by winning his first Olympic medal (silver) behind Nils Schumann of Germany.

2001, was lost to illness and injury, but he came roaring back in 2002 to win his first European title, ahead of Olympic champion Schumann and World champion Bücher. He ran inside 1:43 two more times, posting the fastest mark of the year, 1:42.32 in Rieti. His only outdoor defeat of the year was in Zürich to Joseph Mutua.

2002

1:46.56i 2r3 Sparkassen Stuttgart 3 Feb

1:48.20i 5 Globen Stockholm 6 Feb

1:48.11i 4 Norw Union Birmingham 17 Feb

1:45.54i SB (0) 2 Gaz Liévin 24 Feb

1:44.28 1rA Kusoc Warszawa 16 Jun

1:44.28 1 ECp-1 Sevilla 23 Jun

1:44.71 1 Strasbourg 29 Jun

1:43.76 1 Herc Monaco 19 Jul

1:44.69 1 Balt 2002 Gdansk 27 Jul

1:47.29 2h3 EC München 9 Aug

1:46.56 1s2 EC München 10 Aug

1:47.25 1 EC München 11 Aug

1:43.59 2rA WK Zürich 16 Aug

1:42.74 1 VD Bruxelles 30 Aug

1:42.32 SB (0) 1 GP II Rieti 8 Sep

2003 saw Kipketer's prowess diminish, as he posted few wins and failed to medal at the world championships. He was the fourth fastest 800m runner of the year.

1:44.68i SB (0) 2rA Globen Stockholm 18 Feb

1:44.96i 1 LBBW Karlsruhe 28 Feb

1:48.47i 1h1 WC Birmingham 14 Mar

1:47.84i 1s2 WC Birmingham 15 Mar

1:45.87i 2 WC Birmingham 16 Mar

1:46.67 1 Kusoc Warszawa 15 Jun

1:45.03 3rA Madrid 2012 Madrid 19 Jul

1:44.36 3rA WK Zürich 15 Aug

1:48.68 2h6 WC Saint-Denis 28 Aug

1:45.50 2s1 WC Saint-Denis 29 Aug

1:45.23 4 WC Saint-Denis 31 Aug

1:43.28 SB (0) 4 VD Bruxelles 5 Sep

1:46.40 4 WAF Monaco 13 Sep

2004 was Kipketer's final year of competition. He won two outdoor races (Rome and Nancy) and won the bronze medal at the Olympics in Athens, and ran inside 1:44 for his final two times.

1:43.88 SB (6) 1rA GGala Roma 2 Jul

1:43.89 4rA WK Zürich 6 Aug

1:44.69 1h3 OG Athína 25 Aug

1:44.63 1s3 OG Athína 26 Aug

1:44.65 3 OG Athína 28 Aug

1:44.77 9 VD Bruxelles 3 Sep

1:43.89 3 Rieti 2004 Rieti 5 Sep

1:45.68 1 Nancy 14 Sep

1:46.37 4 WAF Monaco 18 Sep

Comparing these two 800m greats, I think that it's clear that Kipketer was the superior performer. Kipketer was supremely dominant and undefeated in three consecutive seasons ('95, '96 and '97) and achieved near dominance in three other season ('94, '99 and '02). As far as marks go, Kipketer owns seven of the top ten marks ever recorded, ran inside 1:43 21 times (next best is Cruz with six times), and ran inside 1:42 four times (no one else has done it more than once). Despite not winning an Olympic gold medal (missing Atlanta to citizenship changes), I have a hard time seeing anyone else contend for the title of greatest male 800m runner in history. His multiple years of utter dominance, coupled with his vastly superior performances over a long period of time eliminate all other contenders.

HE IS STILL GOLD AN OLYMPIC CHAMPION, HE IS.......THE BEST!!BY THE WAY, YOU WROTE: "1984 was by far his best year; I can't find any losses during the year, he won the Olympics in 1:43.00, ran sub 1:43 three times, including his AR 1:41.77, very good year." ... HE DOESN"T HAVE THE AMERICAN RECORD, HE IS BRAZILIAN!!! GOOD TRY!! JOAQUIM IS AN OLYMPIC CHAMPION!! WILSON IS NOT!!!

Question for you? Who has the olympic gold medal at home? PERIOD. THE CASE IS CLOSE!!! JOAQUIM WON!!!

and Peter Snell has won 3 times as many golds as Cruz, twice as many at 800m. He also set the WR for 800m something your boy hasn't done - now the case is closed

Cruz < Snell

AR = Area record

AR = Area Record

and despite never winning an Olympic gold medal, Kipketer is the superior 800m runner.

The fact that Kipketer got screwed by citizenship issues in 1996 shouldn't take away from his title as the greatest ever. Cruz had one better-than-everyone else year and two or three more very, very good years. Kipketer had three, undefeated, dominating, better-than-everyone else years, as well as several more near perfect years.

Come up with some statistics to argue that Cruz (the #3 runner on the all time list, with one sub1:42 and six sub1:43s) is superior to Kipketer (four times under 1:42 and inside 1:43 TWENTY-ONE times).

Excellent work Coelacanth, Kipketer is CLEARLY the best of all time. I would probably put Coe about Cruz as well, but it's pretty close (obviously Coe was by far Cruz's superior overall, considering his accomplishments from 1000m-the mile. He ran the fastest times, had by far the most depth in his time, and also dominated worlds for quite a while. If he had an Oly gold, we would never be having this discussion. He has a silver and a bronze, and that is considered a severe disappointment for him. This shows how amazing he was. He would've EASILY won in 1996, and then he got malaria. I think we can excuse the lack of Oly gold here.

Actually, Coe had two Olympic silvers; not a silver and a bronze.

I feel I should repeat my earlier post. As I said before, there should really be no debate about Kipketer being number 1. Thank you, Coelacanth, for illustrating that comprehensively.

Also, I have trouble placing Cruz ahead of Coe. For the title GOAT (or 2nd GOAT), it is important to consider championship record, times, competition, records, longevity and consistency. Here's how Cruz and Coe match up over 800m:

Champion Medals

Cruz - 1 OG, 1 OS, 1 WC bronze

Coe - 2 OS, 1 ECG, 1 ECS, 1 ECB

World Records

Cruz - None

Coe - 2 (1:42.33 in 1979 and 1:41.73 in 1981); Coe held the 800m WR for a total of 18 years, over two incredibly deep running eras.

Times

Cruz - 6 sub-1:43 performances

Coe - 2 sub-1:43 performances (both WR's)

Longevity (Years from first major championship medal to last)

Cruz - 4

Coe - 10

It is certainly a tough call; Cruz takes Coe in Olympic performances and number of fast times, but Coe was the world's fastest 800m runner for 18 years, was consistently competitive for much longer, and had his own impressive championship medal haul (I include Europeans because Cruz contended in the Pan-American games, even winning a 1500m gold in '87). Ultimately, if you were to match up Coe in his prime ('81) against Cruz in his prime, I think Coe would win 9 times out of 10.

1. Kipketer (there should really be no debate here)

2. Coe

3. Cruz

4. Snell

Also, though I would still rank Kipketer #1 without reservation, I recall an interview with Johnny Gray toward the end of Gray's career. The interviewer asked which 800m athlete from Gray's competitive career struck the most fear into him on the starting line. He replied, without hesitation, that it was Coe. The interviewer seemed somewhat surprised, inquiring about Cruz and others, to which Gray repeated: "It was Coe; that man had gears!"

Does anyone else recall this interview, and the exact details?

I remember reading that as well, though I couldn't tell you where it came from. Of course, Johnny was more or less on his way out by the time that Kipketer came on the scene.