Webb/Aouita - only two ever sub-27:40/sub-1:44??

wowzeroonie wrote:

My point of the thread certainly wasn't that Webb and/or Aouita are the best ever, or even the runners with the best range ever, but just exactly what I said in my first post, they are the only 2 to break those two barriers.

It's getting even more impressive, when we realize that this two runners in fact are the only under 1:46 and 28 minutes!

[quote]Don´t you see, that El G 400m split time was about 53,3.You should see the difference between the rabbit and El G.The video doesn`t show the last 400m. I strongly doubt

it was 52,44 like you are saying. The fact is that Aouita

run 1.43,86 at Brussel in 1988 and and as the video proves

in Olympic final he run mathematically c. 1.43,1.

I believe, that El. G had low 1.43 potential.

Why El G was much faster than Aouita at 1500 and longer

distances ? The reason could well be that he had much

higher haemoglobin values than Aouita. High haemoglobin

does not help you at 800, because it is much more anaero-

bic than 1500 metres. These stories of 1.42 training

runs can´t be taken seriously. Was it hand timed ?

Flying start ?[quote]

you are stupid hater, i just saw that video and the first lap was 51, elguerrouj mark was probably 52.x, but the last lap is definitely 52.44, you must be blind or you dont know how to read.

Hicham is the best miler of all time, running 52 secs in the 1500 first and last lap is really impressive, i remember in ATHENS 2004 Hicham El Guerrouj ran the last 800m in 1:46 and 51.9 for the final lap!

ryan22 wrote:

you are stupid hater, i just saw that video and the first lap was 51, elguerrouj mark was probably 52.x, but the last lap is definitely 52.44, you must be blind or you dont know how to read.

Always those very friendly comments...

The first lap of Hicham El Guerrouj WAS around 53,3, no question about that. I carefully checked the video (not on youtube with this bad picture quality). The last lap really was very fast, probably 52,6.

Aoutia is the greatest PROVEN all-around distance runner of any era. At the finish of his career he had World Records @ 1500m, 2000m, 3000m & 5000m and #2 at Mile. When he ran his only 10k (27:22) he was only 11 seconds of the WR. And he even ran an outstanding steeple.

When it came to championship performances, I've never heard of any person in any era who medaled at 800m and 5000m at Olympic (or WC) level. Aoutia won gold at 5km @ '84 Oly and '85 & '87 Worlds. He garnered bronze at '88 Oly 800m and '83 WC 1500m.

ElG was awesome, and I have no doubt he COULD have run 10k (or 800m in sanctioned meet) and Webb being the second member of the 800/10k "club" is a sign that he has the potential to eventually be considered among the all-time bests.

Helsinki wrote:

Remarks from Aouitas potential.

800m Soul 1.44,06. Aouitas distance was c. 807m

1500m Nizza 3.29,71. Aouitas distance was c. 1509m.

His speed at final meters was 7 m/s(800m) and

7,5 m/s (1500m).

Mathematically his times were c. 1.43,1 and c.3.28,5

apart from extra distance considerations he may have run in his 3'29.71, he also ran the race maybe because part of it, with ridiculous splits of 2'37.0 /52.7 :

57.1 pace for 2.75 laps & 52.7 for last lap

his uneven splits cannot be all due to extra distance run, but some portion due to uneven pace judgement ( it's virtually impossible to assume he ran every inch of that race, albeit somewhat over 1500m at "perfect even pace" )

if his extra distance is ballpark & some element of uneven pace, it's more likely close to

~ 3'28-flat potential on the day

further evidence on his wiki entry of his 3'29.46wr :

"(3:29.46). Aouita's 1500 m world record was remarkable for its slow start. Aouita passed the first 400 m in a mediocre time of 57.0 seconds, at 800 m he was still just under 1:54 min before he accelerated dramatically"

he ran last 1100m in 2'32.7, which is 3'28.3 pace

Doyle wrote:

Aoutia is the greatest PROVEN all-around distance runner of any era. At the finish of his career he had World Records @ 1500m, 2000m, 3000m & 5000m and #2 at Mile. When he ran his only 10k (27:22) he was only 11 seconds of the WR. And he even ran an outstanding steeple.

When it came to championship performances, I've never heard of any person in any era who medaled at 800m and 5000m at Olympic (or WC) level. Aoutia won gold at 5km @ '84 Oly and '85 & '87 Worlds. He garnered bronze at '88 Oly 800m and '83 WC 1500m.

ElG was awesome, and I have no doubt he COULD have run 10k (or 800m in sanctioned meet) and Webb being the second member of the 800/10k "club" is a sign that he has the potential to eventually be considered among the all-time bests.

Geb is the greatest all-around distance runner ever. Look at his range:

1500m 3:31.76i (#2 all time to El Guerrouj)

3000m 7:25.09 (#4 to Morceli, El Guerrouj and Komen)

2 miles 8:01 (#2 all time)

5000m 12:39.36 (#2 all-time, went from Aouita's '87 WR of 12:58 down to 12:39)

10000m 26:22.75 (#2 all-time, went from Ondieki's sub27 WR to 26:22)

Half-Marathon 58:55 (#2 all-time, first man under 59min)

Marathon 2:04:26 (WR, broke old WR by 30sec)

He's won world titles at 1500m (indoors), 3000m (indoors), 5000m (junior), and 10000m (four world, two Olympic) as well as his bronze and silver from 2001, and his World Half-Marathon gold in 2001.

And these weren't in completely different eras. Geb ran 3:31i just four months before he ran 26:22 and 12:39. He won world indoor titles at 1500m and 3000m the same year that he defended his world 10000m title in Seville.

The guy has been the best from 1500m to the marathon and everything in between. He's broken 27min EIGHT TIMES (three times in 2003 alone). Geb is the best ever. No doubt.

There are many runners with better range than Webb and Aouita from 1500-10k. Geb, Bekele, and Kipchoge are a few. Komen is easily the best runner all-time from 1500-5k (3:29, 7:20, 12:39).

silva wrote:yes i have a some informations about this time , first this was early in the 2002 saison, he and his coachs was trying to figure out if he should line up in the 800m distances as well, he had only 1 pace maker (the morrocan 400m champion at the time) the first lap was sub 50secs and after the pace maker stoped in 500m elguerrouj ran the second lap in about 53secs, hicham ran the 800m in 1:42:70.

this information was told to me by a friend of my coach who was present in the moulay abdellah stade when elguerrouj ran this time

1st account of this i've heard of & it sounds consistent with his PEAK ability :

according to this :

it gives el g ~ 1'42.91 ability ( consider 1'42.70 above musta been a hand time with usual ~ 0.24s error for auto-time consideration )

however, i disagree with the 3'26.00 / 12'50.00 parameters used :

in his 3'26.00, he ran ridiculous splits of 2'32.2 / 53.8, which his 2.75 laps at 55.3 pace followed by a 53.8

he musta been worth ~ 3'25.5 that day with more even splits ( quicker 1100m maybe of about 2'31.0 - 2'31.5 )

i'd probably use 3'25.25 - 3'25.75 to give a bit of range on both sides around 3'25.5

as for 5k, i woudn't use 12'50 on '97 considerations as it was years from his 3'26.00 when he ran a 5k many years later with different mix speed/endurance : '03

i'd think more about his 3k - he ran 7'23.09 in '99 ( same year he ran 3'27.65 in the infamous "paced" ( not wonderfully ) wc final by another 'roccan - no doubt 3'26 that day if it was a gp race )

anyhows his 7'23.09 was run of shit pace : far too slow 1st k & then far too quick 2nd k, leaving him wasted for final k - i can't remember his initial splits but he got 4'53.56 split at that time & i reckoned he was wasted by then & a 2'29.53 last k showed it :

anyhows, bottom line is, i'd reckon on his ideal race that day, he worth anywhere between 7'19.00 - 7'21.00

assuming he was in his peak "moment" able to run all the distances to ultimate potential ( impossible as different speed/endurance mix every day let alone every year ), i'd work with :

3'25.25 - 3'27.75 / 7'19.00 - 7'21.00

which yields 2 ranges :

3'25.25 / 7'21.00 ->

46.98

1'42.09

2'10.89

12'52.46

27'26.59

&

3'25.75 / 7'19.00 ->

47.87

1'43.08

2'11.80

12'45.44

27'02.56

commonsense tells me that latter looks more likely :

high 47 / 1'43-flat / high 2'11 / high 3'25 / 7'19-flat / 12'45 / close to 27-flat

aouita coud be worth analysing as long as we have an ideal range :

suggestion is 1'43-flat thru too much extra distance run in '88, but i doubt he had that in '85 - i'd give nearer 1'44-flat then knowing he'd had to sacrifice 800 speed to get 5k endurance & i'd certainly give him 3'28.00 - 3'29.00 in '85

i suppose giving widest range ballpark, i'd give him

1'43.75 - 1'44.25 / 3'28.00 - 3'29.00 :

which -> ultimate potential in '85 :

1'43.75 / 3'29.00 ->

47.62

2'13.11

7'29.91

13'09.04

28'04.44

other extreme :

1'44.25 / 3'28.00 ->

48.44

2'13.28

7'23.64

12'53.34

27'18.79

it's fairly obvious that in '85 he was tended to potential of

low-mid 48 / low-mid 2'13 / 3'38-flat / biggish <7'25 / decent <12'55 / little under < 27'20

guy not from there wrote:

There are many runners with better range than Webb and Aouita from 1500-10k. Geb, Bekele, and Kipchoge are a few. Komen is easily the best runner all-time from 1500-5k (3:29, 7:20, 12:39).

Aouita was pre-EPO, and Webb, by all accounts, is clean. Geb, Bekele and Komen were/are Doping Queens who would be nothing without EPO, Repoxygen, etc.

err...

coupla pints packed-cell infusion + 40-80mg frusemide have been available since time immemorial...

You have no idea what you're talking about. Geb is, and always has been, 100% legit. No one who has your delusional stance has been able to explain why the same Mike Long from Elite Racing who physically tossed Asmae Leghzaoui from his half marathon two years ago, also had Geb front and centre in his memorial photo. Is there any reason why you would have had more insight into the matter than he?

And I don't think Kim was giving Komen anything. I'd sooner believe that the 3000m in '96 started at the wrong line (being Rieti and all) than drugs. Mind you, this was the same Kim McDonald that managed and coached America's own Bob Kennedy. If you honestly think that Komen was dirty, then that suspicion should naturally extend to Kennedy.

I wouldn't bet on it, though.

ventolin wrote:

err...

coupla pints packed-cell infusion + 40-80mg frusemide have been available since time immemorial...

That won't get hematocrit into the 60s, though, it takes a lot more than a couple of pints to do that, but EPO does it very easily. So does Repoxygen. I heard Komen's hematocrit was in the high 60s or higher when he ran 7:20, and no sane Dr. would be okay with that, so I guess my argument doesn't make much sense. My bad.

I also have heard that El G had blood withdrawn immediately after a race because the viscosity was so high due to his EPO use. Why I forgot that, I have no idea.

the former mobile9 wrote:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Geb is, and always has been, 100% legit.

Of course he is. Doping is part of sport. He dopes, of course, but he still beats other dopers, and he still trains his ass off.

A race car driver can't win without his car, does that make him "non-legit?"

ventolin wrote:

ventolin wrote:

err...

coupla pints packed-cell infusion + 40-80mg frusemide have been available since time immemorial...

That won't get hematocrit into the 60s, though, it takes a lot more than a couple of pints to do that, but EPO does it very easily. So does Repoxygen. I heard Komen's hematocrit was in the high 60s or higher when he ran 7:20, and no sane Dr. would be okay with that, so I guess my argument doesn't make much sense. My bad.

I also have heard that El G had blood withdrawn immediately after a race because the viscosity was so high due to his EPO use. Why I forgot that, I have no idea.

very stoopid

you clearly have no conception of fine line between hematocrit/embolus -> stroke/vegetable/death

as for komen :

what date did they start blood-sampling tracksters ???

ventolin ( original ) wrote:

very stoopid

you clearly have no conception of fine line between hematocrit/embolus -> stroke/vegetable/death

as for komen :

what date did they start blood-sampling tracksters ???

NOW I remember. That's why DOCTORS didn't like to elevate hematocrit so much via blood doping! But when EPO came out athletes and coaches started pushing the envelope. And all those NL cyclists died in their sleep. And he

was even known as Mr. 60% because he really pushed the limit. How could I have forgetten this? I must learn to THINK b4 I post!

Wow, there is so much garbage being spewed about the doping or lack thereof of Geb, Komen, El G, etc. The truth is, none of us know, and it is likely that none of us ever will know. As for Aouita, I have heard many times that he was dirty, but who knows?

As for El G, who could doubt that he could run 1:42? For God's sake, if Webb can run 1:43, surely El G could have run 1:42 in his prime. Was he really slower than Steve Cram?

Intergalactic wrote:

Wow, there is so much garbage being spewed about the doping or lack thereof of Geb, Komen, El G, etc. The truth is, none of us know, and it is likely that none of us ever will know. As for Aouita, I have heard many times that he was dirty, but who knows?

As for El G, who could doubt that he could run 1:42? For God's sake, if Webb can run 1:43, surely El G could have run 1:42 in his prime. Was he really slower than Steve Cram?

El G had less basic speed than Cram but ran 3+ seconds faster over 1500; the guess here is that 800 meters would not be long enough to allow his EPO-induced super endurance to overtake Cram's greater speed.

Whether or not Aouita was dirty is a moot point, as he retired before the advent of EPO. To give an example of WHY this is a crucial distinction, just look at the Tour De France. It's always been even dirtier than track, but when EPO hit in the early 90s, the average speed of the peleton took off like a rocket, esp. on hard climbs. WHY? Because EPO was simply vastly more effective than the steroids, stimulants, and blood doping of the 70s and 80s (which still were and are used, btw).