Whatever happened to BRUCE KIDD, Canadian Phenom in the early '60s? A pre-PRE!?

Thanks for the detailed post. Back in those days, Springbank and Bay to Breakers were about the only high-level road races that weren't marathons.

About Bruce Kidd's training, wasn't it mainly interval training, at least for long stretches of time? He did not take the Lydiard approach, right?

There were indeed rumors of under the table payments. The year that I ran there I somehow was invited to a pre-race reception and got to talking with Dave Prokop for a good while. I got quite an earful about how much it had cost him to bring Jerome Drayton there a year or two previously.

Don't forget Hamilton Ontario's Around the Bay Race. It is the oldest race on the continent, started in 1894, I believe. Back in the day, it was Boston and "Around The Bay". Both are still the oldest and greatest!

Bruce ran intervals and for the first few years (1960, 61) I did them with him. I will post on that soon but I must do my workouts today.

Just would like to say that Springbank('75) was the classiest event I may have run in, in terms of competition (Drayton, Shorter, Rodgers, Jon Anderson in the '12' , plus a host of other very good runners. Geis, among others I believe, lead a very good field in the '4'). The day and the park were simply beautiful. I remember some type of zoo there and hundreds of spectators would line the course, watching some of the best long distance runners in the world. The race itself (I ran the '12')was straight out "Ba@@s to the wall Fast." I can remember coming through the first lap in 13:45 (?);even knowing it wasn't quite three miles, scared the dayights out of me, realizing I had THREE laps to go!! I settled in, finally, and got pulled along to 56:5X for fifth. Found out later that Shorter and Drayton had set a furious pace, leaving Rodgers behind. My fifth place at Springbank stands out as one of the greatest races of my life. The ambience of the park, being in that great field, and the post-race party(ies!) is road-racing at its best!!

Bill Scobey was a stud. Humbolt State grad was a 4:01 miler and 2:14 marathon guy in the early 70s. Scobey's famous quote was: "I don't get anything out of training unless my lungs burn or my legs ache."

Ghost of Igloi

He was always Bill "Mad Dog" Scobey. I saw his name in results from some race in New Zealand, 20 miles I think, maybe three or four years ago.

Of all of the time I spent training with Bruce Kidd, there is a day that really stands out. I remember the fun day of the long training walk, the dog and the Olympic 5K.

Coach Foot had told us to take the last week of August 1960 as a rest week so we were not to run at all.

Then 17 year old Bruce (I was 7 years older) and I were to begin our fall training with a very long walk on Saturday, September 3. So Bruce slept at my Mother's house place in Don Mills on the night of Sept 2nd. At dawn Saturday, we set off walking north-eastward (we later turned southward) along the freeway. Just as we left my Mother's neigbourhood a small dog joined us. As we made our way, the dog, full of pep, ran here,there and everywhere but always kept coming back to us. Gradually the sun rose over the hot pavement of the highway. It became very very hot. The dog began to dehydrate. His hanging tongue got longer and longer. Eventually it was about to drag on the ground. We bagan to worry about him and we were getting farther and farther from my Mother's home. Finally we came upon a supermarket so we resolved the situation by getting the dog to follow us into the store. We then quickly ran outside, shut the door and ran down the road. It was all great fun and, fortunately, we must have made the right decission because that dog was running around our neighbourhood a few days later.

It is recorded in my log that we walked 18 miles in four and a half hours and stopped at Bruce's house down by the beach for the highlight of the day. The Olympic 5K final was being shown on television. It was exciting and very impressive to watch Murray Halberg of New Zealand charge off alone in the tenth lap to gain a good sized lead and then hang on for dear life for the gold medal. The copy of Track and Field News that I still have said that Halberg had stolen the race. Not true! He won it!

Both Bruce and I were in a state of elation as we parted and I walked the eight miles home.

Now we turn to June 2, 1962 for the ending of the story of the only walk we ever took as part of our training. On June 2, 1962, 18 year old Bruce Kidd was to race Olympic Champion Murray Halberg, US Olympian Max Truex and other top runners in the United States in the Compton Invitational. At the time Halberg was the Olympic Champion, world record holder at two and three miles and had only been beaten at the 3 mile-5,000 meter distance once in his career. Halberg had also just missed Kuts' 5K world record of 13:35 by two seconds the year before.

Track and Field News summed up the race the best in their June 1962 cover story heading. "Kidd Upsets Halberg." In addition, Bruce set World Junior and North Americn Records for the event. And, I have always wondered how much the events of September 3, 1960 helped Bruce win that race. Bruce's win sure was a great ending to that fun day so many months before.

Orville there is something missing between coaxing the dog into the store and running away.

Orville, that's some of the most fun I've had reading about running in quite a while. I never tire hearing & reading about incidents and stories before 'running became cool' in the '70's. You ask what part your long walk in '60 might've had on Kidd's '62 accomplishments...all things fit together somehow; events overlap and dovetail into each other in ways we're aware of & some we aren't.

You deserve a larger audience than frequents Letsrun.

Yes, this is a pretty good forum when we get a wide cross section of readers & posters here. Some history, some good ideas on training, etc.

Just want all to know that our humble Orville actually won the Hamilton Around The Bay Race in 1961. He's more than just a wonderfully knowledgable guy.

And I'll bring up another name here. Grant McLaren was a gutsy Canadian who ran in the 13:30's back in the 70's. He always kept the pace honest at Springbank, in the 4 1/2 miler. I see Grant occaisionally when I run in one of my favourite trails near home. He has a bad hip and either has had, or will need a new hip soon.

I took some neat photos at Springbank in the old days and may send some of the classics to some of you old guys when I get the time to sit and do some scanning.

yes, Grant McClaren, another great name from the past! Ran some great 2M-10KM, maybe even ran a good mile that we never heard about! Brian Armstrong? I always thought he would be the heir-apparent to Drayton in the marathon. Wasn't there a big brouha concerning Canada not sending him to the Olympics one year (1972?) because it was felt that his qualifying times weren't "very good"? Brian Maxwell certainly had some great performances in the Marathon, also, a little later. Great story about him and his wife creating Powerbar. Very tragic death, WAY too young!! There were certainly alot of talented Canadian distance runners, considering the population of Canada!

Bruce Kidd and The East York Track Club training was mainly interval running with some of us doing long runs of about 8 to 16 miles on some weekends. Officially, there was no running on Sunday. Coach Foot planned all workouts and timed and timed them when they were on an outdoor or indoor track. Outdoors we wore spikes since we trained on cinder tracks. Other times we ran in the very poor flat training shoes of the day.

In March of 1961, Track Technique published an article regarding Bruce's training as submitted to them by Coach Foot. The information below comes from that article.

Our fall training (September through October) often started with a 3 1/2 mile run through the streets of Toronto as a warmup.

Monday: 8 x 880 in 2:20-2:23, jog 440 after each

Tuesday: 6 x 3/4 mile in 3:35-3:40 with 440 jog

Wed: 20 x 330 yds in 46-48, jog 110 between

Thurs: 20 x 440 in 68-71, jog 220

Friday: repeat Wednesday

Saturday: race or repeated interval in hills followed be 6 1/2-8 mile run through hills

Sunday: Rest

Winter Training (Dec to March) was done in Hart House at the University of Toronto on a cork-rubber compositon track that was 153 yards per lap (11 1/2 laps per mile) with banked turns. (This is why Bruce and Bill Crothers were so outstanding during the indoor season. We were all good indoor runners because we had to negotiate such sharp turns in training)

Monday 8 x 765 yards. Tuesday 8 x 918 yards. Wed 8 x 765 yards. Thurs 20 x 459 yards. The repetitions were run at a speed of 68 seconds per 440 yards and the recovery after each repetition was a rapid recovery jog of 320 yards.

Friday 20 x 320 yards at 67 per 440 speed with a 160 jog after each

Saturday: race or time trial Sunday Rest

Summer Training (May and July only) After June the training volume and intensity is reduced due to hot weather. Venue--440 yard cinder track.

Monday: 8 x 3/4 mile in 3:24-3:28 with 44 jog between Tues 6 x 1 mile in 4:40-4:42 with 880 jog

Wed 10x 880 in 2:16-2:21 with 440 jog Thurs 12 x 660 in 1:33-1:35 with 220 jog

Friday rest or 30 x 220 yards in 31-33 with 110 jog Saturday race or time trial

There is no off season and at that time Bruce only trained once a day. All workouts are timed by the coach and others who assisted him.

We believed that there were two basic princples, (a) an athlete runs with his legs and (b) the speed of muscular contraction is innate or inborn. We believed that the legs were all that was important. For maximum results the legs should be used as efficiently as possible. This is achieved when the athlete concentrates on maintaining a leg action that is both economical and brisk. The arms are forgotten and are considered as functioning as instruments of balance operating in response to the legs.

The clubs middle distance runners followed the same schedule. The sprinters followed a modified version. There were usually several groups running workouts at the same time with Bruce and Bill and one or two others the center of their own group.

My memory is that in the spring, the whole club would run 220s or 330s together as we began our outdoor training. It was always a lot of fun!

bump here.

old Canadian wrote:

Just want all to know that our humble Orville actually won the Hamilton Around The Bay Race in 1961. He's more than just a wonderfully knowledgable guy.

He could run also?? Haha...kidding....Orville rocked some stellar Marathons!

THIS is the book, Man?! :) Collect all the good historical ruminations from Orville all over Letsrun (see the amazing Igloi thread!), and put it into a booklet called: Letsrun Down Memory Lane. Or something like that.

The 1961 Around the Bay Race! Now there is a story about a fun weekend! I think I posted it a couple of years ago but here is today's version.

On Saturday September 7 1961, I was running along in the Hamilton Around the Bay Race in about 3rd or 4th place when I began to pass a line of stopped cars that were on the roadway approaching the canal. It was the Saturday of the Thanksgiving weekend and the cars had wide boats and recreation vehicles attached making running by them on the narrow shoulder of the road a bit hazardous. I looked up the road and was amazed to see the draw bridge rising and a sail boat approching it. Upon reaching the canal I found those who were ahead of me waiting to cross over the bridge. It was at least 4 minutes later that we were able to proceed and we quickly spread out in the order we had been in when we were stopped. As we approached the hills, a flatbed truck with a handful of people on it drove up alongside me. As they went by a lady pointed at me and said to her companions that "He is going to win". I yelled back "Your damn right" and away I went. I eventually passed the two runners ahead of me and went on to win the race by 2 minutes. At the finish, I jogged off to be alone as I liked to do when I had run a good one. A photographer with a camera came down the road towards me as he hustled to the finish line. He asked me who had won. I took great glee in pointing off down the road the other way and saying that it was some guy down there. I then jogged off.

The award ceremony was held in the Canadian Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans Hall in Hamilton. I was seated at a table at the front of the room with officials of the race. I felt something brush my knee a couple of times and kept knocking it off before realizing that someone was trying to give me something. The evelope I received contained a $70.00 Eaton's (similar to Sears) voucher! I was able to buy a much needed suit with that voucher.

Two quotes about that Around the Bay race that were in the The Hamilton Spectator were, "mid-summer heat (it was 80 degrees)together with a delay at the canal when the bridge remained open for several minutes to permit passage of a sailboat threw the times all out of kilter" and "Finishing almost fresh enough to make a second loop, Atkins held a margin of two minutes and two seconds". That is the only time that I ran that race.

I can remember being very tired all of the next day (Sunday) and my log shows that I jogged 20 minutes and then walked a little and tried to sleep a lot.

Monday was Canada's Thanksgiving Day. I drove to Guelph to run in the 15 mile race that was held each year as a part of the Annual Guelph road races. I had won the previous year. On the first loup of the course, I was running along about ten yards behind leader, French Canadien Roland Michaud, when he came upon a crossroads. He shrugged and looked back. It appeared that he did not know which way to turn. I shouted "a droit" so he began to veer to the right. I then realized that I had the incorrect French word and that we were to go "a gauche". I went on to win the race.

All that running in one weekend came from interval running with Bruce Kidd. When Bruce did not race often had a chance to win.

I have a log showing all of the workouts I did while at the East York Track Club.

We gradually increased our mileage and the speed of the repetitions but low mileage could win races in the early 1960s. My log shows that I ran the follwing weekly mileage from October 1961 until my first marathon of 1962 39, 49, 34, 61, 51, 50, 41, 49, 58, 37, 66, 53, 45, 32, 24, 36, 63, 49, 54, 70, 50, 41

Sunday, March 11, 1962--The First Annual Chicago Windy City Marathon--First--2:31.16.8

71 (includes the marathon), 56, 61, 47, 37

Thursday April 19, 1962 Boston Marathon--Fifth--2:31.49

All this only proves that I could run a 2:32 marathon with low mileage and the right intensity of intervals. I am sure that if I had not been training with Bruce Kidd and the others in The East York Club, I could not have run the times that I ran. I was lucky to have trained when and where I did.

Love it, Orville. Thanks, Man.