Paavo Distance Training

Moral of the story: You can be a success or a failure regardless of what system you use. Do all of Newton's kids become All-American? Do all of Wetmore's guys and gals become great elite runners? Of course not.

PAAVO is a very intense, very interval driven program. Then again so was the program used by George Young and Bob Schul, both former Olympians.

As far as team building goes and adapting the workout to meet individual needs. That's up to the coach. My junior year I had two other guys training right along with me, even though I was the fastest of the group. Like any program, the numbers are there just as a guide.

Sidebar: The PPMS were the most difficult to do. I think during the last two years of high school you might even be able to do away with them for the most part. They serve as an important tool for a freshman or sophomore who doesn't understand how to pace themselves and who simply needs to learn how to race. Then again my PRs did plateau during my last two years when PPMs weren't enforced as much.

This is how I would change the system if I were to coach:

PPMs: Use as HARD tempos. Not your normal lolly gagging, but good hard efforts. These teach kids how to run hard and how to pace themselves. Basically a Lydiardesque 7/8th "time trial".

Intervals: Reduce # of workouts by one. Max 3 workouts/race a week. So one Slow Interval Workout, one Pace Interval Workout. Slow Interval workouts used to teach race pace, keep the same long rest as that aids the purpose of the workout. Keep the standing rest of the Pace Intervals as that aids the purpose of the workout (accumulation of lactic acid). I would also throw out the CT rule. No one really follows that do they? Daily "easy" runs are supposed to be :45 a mile slower than PPM pace. That's pretty quick. We typically went 6:20-45 pace regardless of distance. Quicker in the offseason.

Alan

Who gives a shit about how unknown americans train? Very few world class runners the last 30 years have trained with systems like Paavo.

personen wrote:

Who gives a shit about how unknown americans train? Very few world class runners the last 30 years have trained with systems like Paavo.

"like Paavo" in that there is a lot of interval training:

Danny Henderson

4/27/83

noon: 10 miles

PM- 1.5mi w/u 6x400 on 1:30 [70,67,66,65,65,59] (starts each repeat 1:30 seconds after prior one started, so if he runs the first 400 in 70, he has 20 seconds rest before he starts the next. If he runs the second repeat in 67, he then has 23 seconds rest). 1m w/d

4/28/83

2 "buildup miles", then 6x800 on 2:45 [2:17, 2:17, 2:19, 2:20, 2:19, 2:19] (the 2:45 gave about 26-28 seconds rest)

On days not noted, Danny usually ran 10 miles around 6:00 pace. Danny also often didn't record his warmup or cooldown

5/02/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,68,65,64,62,60]

5/03/83

PM- 5x1mi on 6:00 [5:00, 4:52, 4:48, 4:41, 4:35], then 5x200 and 5x300

5/04/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,67,66,64,63,59]

5/05/83

2mi w/u, 4x800 on 3:00 [2:30, 2:24, 2:23, 2:15], then 4x600 on 2:05 [avg 1:53] (note: that's only 13 seconds rest btwn each repeat), then 4x600 on 1:55 [1:42, 1:42, 1:41, 1:40]

5/06/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,67,65,63,61,60]

5/08/83

Meet at Ohio State: 5000m 13:51 (4:27, 4:32, 4:24)

5/10/83

2mi w/u, 4x1200 on 4:30 [3:48, 3:41, 3:36, 3:35], then 4x1200 on 4:00 [3:26, 3:28, 3:27, 3:24], 4x200 [30.7, 30.6, 30.1, 30.0]

5/11/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,67,65,63,61,58]

5/12/83

2mi w/u

10x400 on 1:30 "strong" [70,69,69,69,69,68,68,69,69,68]

10x400 on 1:30 "fast" [65,66,65,65,65,65,65,64,65,62]

3x200 on 1:00 [29,30,29], 3x200 on 1:00 [27,27,27]

5/13/83

Meet at North Central College 5000m 13:46 (4:24, 4:28, 4:24)

5/16/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,66,64,62,63,62]

5/17/83

2mi w/u, 3x1mi on 5:20, 2x1mi on 5:15 [4:44, 4:48, 4:51, 4:50, 5:00] (note the last 2 repeats were done on about 20 seconds rest), 4x400 on 1:30 [75,70,69,68]

5/18/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [68,64,65,62,62,58]

5/19/83

2mi w/u, 4x800 on 3:00 [2:26, 2:23, 2:23, 2:24], 4x800 on 2:45 [2:18, 2:20, 2:22, 2:20], 4x800 on 2:30 [2:25, 2:27, 2:27, 2:24] (note those last 4 repeats were done with about 3-5 seconds rest)

5/20/83

Race at North Central College 1500m 3:48.6 (60.3, 2:01.9, 3:02.9)

5/21/83

10K road race: 30:04

5/23/83

2mi w/u, 400 [70] 50sec rest, 800 [2:23] 37sec rest, 1200 [3:39] 21sec rest, 1600 [4:53] 7sec rest, 2000 [5:56] 4sec rest, 1:00 break, 1600 [4:44] 16sec rest, 1200 [3:31] 29sec rest, 800 [2:17] 43sec rest, 400 [62]

5/24/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [69,65,63,62,61,59]

5/25/83

2mi w/u, 5x800 on 3:00 [2:24, 2:21, 2:18, 2:15, 2:12], 5x600 on 2:15 [1:47, 1:42, 1:41, 1:39, 1:36], 5x400 on 1:30 [70,67,66,64,62]

5/26/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [68,66,63,62,60,58]

5/27/83

2mi w/u, 6x1200 [3:42] 18sec rest, [3:35] 25sec rest, [3:30] 30sec rest, [3:27] 63sec rest, [3:22] 68sec rest, [3:33], 400m easy jog, 5x300m [44.8, 43.4, 43.5, 44.2, 44.9]

5/28/83

"Distance Run"

5/30/83

5mi w/u, 5x1mi [4:51] 24sec rest, [4:55] 20sec rest, [4:53] 22sec rest, [4:57] 18sec rest, [4:48]

5/31/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [66,65,62,61,60,58]

6/01/83

2mi w/u, 6x800 on 2:40 [2:20, 2:20, 2:20, 2:20, 2:21, 2:20], 20sec rest, 6x800 on 3:00 [2:18, 2:17, 2:15, 2:14, 2:12, 2:09] (note: that's 20sec rest btwn repeats in the first set and ~42-51sec rest btwn repeats in the second), 6x200 [27.4, 26.9, 27.1, 27.2, 27.2, 27.4] easy 200m jog btwn repeats

6/02/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [66,63,62,62,61,59]

6/03/83

2mi w/u, 3x1mi progressive on 6:00 [4:50, 4:37, 4:21], 3x800 broken at 200m for 10-15sec. [29.4, 29.9, 30.7, 29.7], [29.1, 28.8, 29.9, 29.1], [28.7, 28.7, 29.5, 29.0] (I think this is basically like 12x200 with 10-15sec rest btwn each.

BEGIN TAPER

6/06/83

3mi w/u, 3x800 on 3:00 [2:23, 2:22, 2:24], 3x800 [2:24, 2:24, 2:25], 1:00 break, 4x800 on 2:40 [2:17, 2:14, 2:14, 2:10]

PM- 7 miles

6/07/83

AM- 10 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 [65,64,62,61,60,59]

6/08/83

3mi w/u, 8x600 on 2:15 "loose & smooth" [1:47, 1:46, 1:47, 1:45, 1:46, 1:46, 1:45, 1:45], 5x600 on 2:00 "loose & fast" [1:44, 1:41, 1:41, 1:40, 1:34]

6/09/83

AM- 8 miles

PM 6x400 on 1:30 [65,63,62,61,61,59]

6/10/83

3mi w/u, 3x1mi on 6:00 [4:51, 4:53, 4:52], 7x400 on 1:20 [70,67,67,65,64,64,61]

PM- 3 miles

6/11/83

10 miles

6/13/83

3mi w/u, 4x800 "loose & smooth" with 30sec rest [2:24, 2:25, 2:30 (1:00 rest), 2:23], 7x400 with 30sec rest (last 100 fast) [71),69,69,68,66,65,62]

6/14/83

AM- 7 miles

PM- 6x400m on 1:30 [64,63,62,61,61,59]

6/15/83

3mi w/u, 3x600 on 2:15 [1:41, 1:38, 1:38], 3x400 on 1:15 [avg 67], 3x200 [30.6, 30.2, 28.7], 2x100 [13.6, 13.4], run 1 mile loose & smooth [67, 2:14, 3:22, 4:28]

6/16/83

7 miles easy

6/17/83

AM- 6 miles

PM- 6x400 on 1:30 (no times given)

6/18/83

5 miles easy

6/19/83

TAC 5000m Finals 13:30.44

Hendersons training is not like Paavo at all.

Henderson doesn't run all out races 3 times a week.

His training is more like swimmers and even similar to Igloi, but not Paavo.

Who the f**k is that. Not exactly world class...

I don't think I'll fully understand why so many people bash Paavo training. Like any training scheme, it works for some and doesn't work for others. I've seen far worse training schemes out there. There are even schools who have never been to state! *shocker*

Alan

People bash PAAVO b/c:

-it's got a Cult like feeling to it.

-There is NO information on it readily available.

-It seems to secretive.

-It's very intense for a HSer.

-The program itself uses tons of pseudoscience that's basically crap. It's fine if you want to do workouts like that, but don't make up some BS scientific explanation.

and probably most of all...

-The paavo people (when running it) seem to take any criticism personally and get entirely too defensive then tell you it's too complicated to understand

DONT DO IT

SERIOUSLY

bad connection wrote:

and probably most of all...

-The paavo people (when running it) seem to take any criticism personally and get entirely too defensive then tell you it's too complicated to understand

Bingo.

I've been to clinics where Daniels, Vigil and Lydiard have spoken. But the only clinic I've been to that promotes itself so arrogantly as the One Way is Marshall Sellers' PAAVO clinic.

If it works for you, fine. But I did not see a reason to change.

Usher... I had to laugh... having seen Lydiard a few times over the years, he could come off as pretty confident his was the only way. Of course, he earned that confidence with results. Marshall stretched Paavo out into 3 clinics when I saw him; His presentation may have merit (Runningart), but he could EASILY condense his presentation to an hour. Very unfocused, and the training scheme could be condensed into a one page handout. It reminded me a little of the 'Wizard of Oz': lots of smoke and mirrors before to get to end, where the kernals of wisdom that make any program good become obvious.

I'm always leery of people that act like they've just invented the secret to training, and that's Paavo. Marshall is a sincere guy, but hard work and progression is a hallmark of any great program. Paavo has no corner on that market, but sadly it is the first time many people hear it.

Hot dogs on a hill wrote:

Usher... I had to laugh... having seen Lydiard a few times over the years, he could come off as pretty confident his was the only way.

True, Lydiard did not lack confidence! But there was some substance and honesty to his message that I didn't see the same way at the PAAVO clinic. To use a spiritual analogy, listening to Lydiard is like listening to a someone like the Pope or the Dalai Lama. Listening to Marshall Sellers is more like listening to Jerry Falwell or Oral Roberts. The same business, but a very different way of coming across.

bad connection wrote:

People bash PAAVO b/c:

-it's got a Cult like feeling to it.

-There is NO information on it readily available.

-It seems to secretive.

-It's very intense for a HSer.

-The program itself uses tons of pseudoscience that's basically crap. It's fine if you want to do workouts like that, but don't make up some BS scientific explanation.

and probably most of all...

-The paavo people (when running it) seem to take any criticism personally and get entirely too defensive then tell you it's too complicated to understand

Bingo...Right on the money, honey.

bad connection wrote:

People bash PAAVO b/c:

-There is NO information on it readily available.

-It seems to secretive.

That has always been my biggest problem with PAAVO. Where are the books? Let's face facts, you can find the systems and philosophys of all the great coaches in the past 50+ years. Why is PAAVO so secretive.

I'm not saying it is good or bad but WHY the big shroud of secrecy. You mean one can only get this information by attending a clinic and no published books???

C'mon somethings wrong here.

OK look....

My local high school uses PAAVO, and here's what I've gathered from it; It can get your ass in shape fast for a month or two, then you get burned out and injured. If I were to use this program I would use it for 4 weeks MAX, pre-race phases (in-between base and competitive phases). I'll admit that using that program for a few weeks can really put some toughness in your body... I mean let's face it... it's pretty hardcore training. But long-term (especially for beginners), it is not a good idea. I believe the best training programs for any level of runner is the annual long-term goal based, hard-easy based Daniels Running Formula. Another thing is the weekly mile time trial is RETARTED. As if you're going to improve every week?! And then a long run on Sunday right after the time trial!?! WTF??? And then another back-to-back long run on Monday? Ok screw everything I said before this only works for bad-asses with a lots of natural talent.

I love reading these to see how much people value their own pride instead of looking at another's view. I'm a PAAVO runner and have been since 8th grade. When I first started, my mile was 9:14 and now I'm going to be a senior with a 4:44. I know I'm not that fast compared to many and I won't talk much on training but I will say this. From what I've experience in the RATX and Bastrop camps, as well as what I've heard from PAAVO North and PAAVO West, it's about running with everything you have when you need it. The camps, in my view and experience are about building your intensity and desire to run. To be honest, it seems like all the "slogans" that some call them, the oneliners are really the same few said in different ways. But this lets people understand it in whatever way feels best to their own personal experiences. Different coaches will coach in their own unique way and some coaches such as the SLC coach, Vander., LHS, BHS coaches will modify to fit what you can do at your own training level. Currently I am running 80miles a week and I've met runners who run 60 who are much faster, but they also train much harder than me. Again, I'd like to say that to me, the PAAVO system builds your INTENSITY and PASSION to run overall. If you don't think about getting better, how could you expect, or want/need, to see that improvement?

Your opinion might have mattered 4-5 years ago.

It leaves most broken and hating running.

ive read all 5 pages of this, and still don't exactly understand the concept of this method...intervals daily? someone care to give a cliff note version?

+1