I just don't understand this debate about adding incline to match the effort of outdoor running. Why not just go a little bit faster to match the effort - then you can get the same cardiovascular work but at a faster turnover - this seems far more ideal a solution than adding incline. I have run quite well during the two periods when I was doing most of my tempos on the treadmill and I never add incline - I just do them a bit faster than I would outdoors.
Brian wrote:
I just don't understand this debate about adding incline to match the effort of outdoor running. Why not just go a little bit faster to match the effort - then you can get the same cardiovascular work but at a faster turnover - this seems far more ideal a solution than adding incline. I have run quite well during the two periods when I was doing most of my tempos on the treadmill and I never add incline - I just do them a bit faster than I would outdoors.
I think the point of the prior post was that there is no need to add incline at all since for all practical purposes the two are essentially the same.
If there is no need to add incline to "make up" for the difference, why is it needed to run your work out faster to make up for a non-existent difference?
So far, every single (legitimate) response has addressed training issues. That's fine, but it leaves much undiscussed.
I'm prepared to be dissed, mocked, laughed out of town with a probe up my rectum for this, but I've got a question: Does running on a treadmill even begin to feed the soul in the way that runnng outdoors does?
I've used a treadmill maybe a dozen times. It's good for a lot of things--including making adjustments to my stride, avoiding treacherous icy roads, etc.--but it always leaves me feeling like a lab rat. And that's not why I run. I'm not cultivating that feeling.
I run to get OFF the treadmill for at least a part of my day. Running is a primal thing. I don't need to tell anybody on this board about that. Humans spend 10,000 years as endurance predators, chasing down our prey. Something deep in us likes to head out the door and make loops--big loops, smaller loops--in the world. Circle the lake. Circle the park. Circumnavigate the five boroughs. Or go out and back.
I like to get off the grid. I like to take my chances out there. It keeps my soul alive.
Go ahead and sneer. Tell me running isn't primal. Laugh off my claims and get back on the treadmill and do the lab-rat boogie. Next time I see you in a race, I'll chase you down and eat you. Then you'll know primal.
I'm exaggerating to make a point, but only slightly. I've got absolutely no problem with runners who make occasional strategic retreats to the treadmill. But I feel sorry, frankly, for any runner who doesn't feel, somewhere deep down, that treadmill running lacks something on the soul-level--something that heading out the door and actually TAKING A RUN supplies.
Read Bruce Wilshire's WILD HUNGER: THE PRIMAL ROOTS OF MODERN ADDICTION. It's about running through the woods, tracking with your dog, being startled by a deer, and many other things.
So what does treadmill running lack? Here are a couple of things:
1) It disarticulates running from the fact of forward motion--from the fact of actually propelling yourself through space and imaginitively recreating yourself in three dimensions as you do so. It's a little like disarticulating the idea of eating from the idea of nourishing yourself. In soul-terms--if not in training terms--treadmill running is junk food. Please read that sentence again. I'm not talking about training effects. I'm talking about spiritual profit and loss.
2) If you want, it's a playground for narcissism. If you do your TM running in front of a mirror, you get to stare into the pool, Narcissus, and lose yourself in your own glorious body--rather than, for example, engaging the World Out There, with all of its pleasures and challenges. Hmm. Welcome to the modern "health club."
3) It deprives you of the possibility of truly engaging with another runner--pursuing, catching, passing, accidentally jostling, tracking, etc. These are primal things. They're part of why we race. The thrill of racing. And they're a subconscious part of why many of us head out the door. (Note to TeenBoy: No, I am NOT talking about stalking. Please don't start with me.)
Track running, although it may seem to diminish running--in my terms--just as much as treadmill running, is in fact quite differerent. Track running allows for all three things I've just listed. In spiritual terms, it's real running. Treadmill running, in spiritual terms, is junk food. I like junk food from time to time. Cheez Doodles. But I don't for a minute fool myself into thinking that I'm nourishing myself.
All good points KudzuRunner. You simply raise different issues than those set forth above. Your issues go to the reasons WHY people run and if those reasons can be satisfied on a treadmill. That is a question that must be answered by each person on his own.
When I get pressed for time, the Tmill is a good option. There's concrete pouring in the city the park...and there's bars on the corner and you know. So I don't feel like I missing out on running through the green grass outdoors.
I have found that running on an incline on the dreadmill leads to xtra soreness in my shins and knees. I rather pick up the pace and look cool.
One of the Tmill negatives is that in the winter it may still be warm inside and so you sweat too much whereas with this balmy weather its great temps out doors.
I have gone back and forth between treadmills and track with a heart monitor (and I have a good sense of subjective effort) and I know there is a small difference. Like I said, I ran a 31:00 10k on a mill this summer while my fastest road 10k was 31:44 this year. I wore a HRM for that effort and it was the same average (160) as I did a 25:20 8k time trial on a flat road course this year. I am simply not in shape to run 31:00 on the track and while it was very hard on the mill, I did it.
It may be that your particular running form dictates the difference between the mill and outdoors. A friend of mine who has good toe-off thinks the mill negates his superior economy and rewards my more plodding style. I have terrible toe-off (I have almost no visible calf muscles). I know I can run faster on a mill while he swears he can't run as fast.
Also being tall (6'4") it could be that I benefit even more byt he lowered wind resistance enough to make 5 seconds/mile difference. And also not having to run turns.
It is simple... You run outside when you can. If you live in the middle of no where and there ar eno street lights and it is 0 degrees outside run on the treadmill. Run as hard as you can for as long as you can. Get a workout in... Then you will be better off compared to sitting on your ass because there is 6 feet of snow outside and you are bumbed because you can't run.
Effort matters, not time or incline or whatever...
I don't know, but the Treadmill does alot me to run Barefoot on it, which does in turn strengthen my foot while I am also running so it's ok, but I still like running outside significantly better.
The plane will not take off.
Running 90% of my miles on my own calibrated TM for the past two years...too many feral dogs and logging trucks to contend with. PR's at both 5K an 10K with less than 45mpw ave. No injuries at all. 61 yrs old. 19:55 & 40:12 flat out . Spin bike once a week as X-training . Nothing wrong with a TM if you use it properly.