Hein wrote:
What MEDICAL school did Shorter attend?
Frank did not go to med school, but rather the Univ. of Florida Law School. Frank's father was the doctor and used to follow him in his car as Frank trained. Seems they lived on an Indian reservation and the father had to ride with a gun so the Indians would not run Frank over. True story. Sorry if that upsets the liberals.
Sorry that you have to make snide comments about liberals. Someone possibly getting run over should bother conservatives, too, should it not?
I haven't read this entire thread, but the secret of Cierpinski's training was that he did drgs, like virtually every elite East German athlete. The person who started this thread by saying he did NOT do drugs is gullible and mistaken.
steve in nj wrote:
Frank did not go to med school, but rather the Univ. of Florida Law School.
Frank started med school in New Mexico, but hated it. He dropped out after three months. I think he started law school in Gainesville the following fall.
It's strange that WC is being defended on the grounds that he's a nicer guy than FS. WC may be a very nice guy, and FS certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I have little doubt that WC was a doper, and FS wasn't. That's not because FS is or was a better person than WC. It's simply because WC was in an environment in which doping was required as part of the program, and FS was in an environment in which doping was frowned upon. My guess is that FS would admit that, if he had been in WC's situation, he probably would have been a doper, too.
As for Viren, I think it's a shame that blood-doping rumors continue to persist. Although there were some decent Finnish runners in the 1970s who were dopers (and, of course, Martii Vaino was a notorious Finnish doper in the 1980s), I have never seen any decent evidence that Viren was a doper. I think it's significant that Viren's closest competitors (including FS) have consistently described Viren as an amazingly talented runner with a remarkable ability to peak at the right time. They haven't, as far as I know, described Viren as a doper. Doping accusations against Viren seemed to come from less knowledgeable observers. (I remember watching the 1976 Olympic 10,000 final on television. As I recall, Eric Segal -- a lousy runner whose only connection to elite distance running seemed to be that he was FS's professor in a classics class at Yale -- accused Viren of being a doper during that race. I'm not aware of any evidence that Segal had.)
I agree completely that the "niceness" of the athletes in question has nothing whatever to do with how "clean" they were. And I have no doubt that Shorter was much cleaner than Cierpinski. However, I don't agree with your defense of Viren and the blood-doping issue. Granted there were not tests then for such things, so all this is speculation. However, it is a fact that blood-doping first came to attention--in 1971 as I recall--in Scandanavia. I have huge suspicions about Vaatainen's big races at the 1971 European meet (he came pretty much out of nowhere to be a world-beater), and I have very, very strongly suspected Viren in 72 (and 76). I can't say I have any evidence, except for his shockingly up-and-down career. It's not too much of an exaggeration to say that he had one month--total--of good running in his entire career: 2 weeks for the Games in '72 and 2 weeks in '76. Granted, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not wildly so. We'll probably never know, but let's just say that in my gallery of running "heroes" Viren doesn't make the top 40.
Might be useful for you to review Viren's career, it was not as shockingly up & down as you think. Did you know Vaatainen or train with him or complete against him to have these suspicions?
I have met Shorter on a couple occasions. He is quiet and reserved as alot of distance runners are, but I enjoyed our conversations and incorporated what he had to offer into my own training.
old tymer wrote:
I have very, very strongly suspected Viren in 72 (and 76). I can't say I have any evidence, except for his shockingly up-and-down career. It's not too much of an exaggeration to say that he had one month--total--of good running in his entire career: 2 weeks for the Games in '72 and 2 weeks in '76. Granted, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not wildly so.
Viren went into the '72 Games as the favorite in both the 5,000 and 10,000 meters. His performances that summer included the third fastest 5,000 in history, followed by a negative-split 27:52 in the Bislett 10,000, followed by a world record in the 2-mile, almost four seconds faster than Puttemans's previous record. Viren's series of performances leading up to the Games that year is hardly consistent with 1970s-style blood-doping. Moreover, blood-doping back in those days was a very iffy proposition that could easily make one sick on race day. It would be a bad bet for the overwhelming favorite to risk the negative side-effects. Also, it is worth remembering that Viren was still relatively young in 1972 -- a little over a year older than Pre, and without a lot of years of running behind him. Viren was simply a phenom -- like Pre, only better.
Viren's performances between the '72 and '76 were affected by a number of pretty serious injuries. But in the months leading up to the '76 Games, he still managed to squeeze in a world best at 25k on the roads and a 27:43 on the track. And I don't know how blood-doping can enable anyone to run a world-class marathon debut just 18 hours after winning the Olympic 5,000 against an outstanding field.
Finally, Viren's performance in the 1980 Olympic 10,000 is worth noting. He ran 27:50, eight years after setting a world record and winning the Olympic gold in that event.
Viren's career was magnificent, characterized by intelligent, focused training and racing, coupled with tremendous natural talent.
Neotenic wrote:
I haven't read this entire thread, but the secret of Cierpinski's training was that he did drgs, like virtually every elite East German athlete. The person who started this thread by saying he did NOT do drugs is gullible and mistaken.
It's hilarious that it's the Americans who KNOW all of Cierpinski's "secrets", yet they have no clue how he trained and no interest in such things.
Why? Because these Americans are ONLY interested in the drugs, and it's the AMERICANS who seem to know all about them.
As far as I'm concerned this says it all about who the experts are in the use and abuse of various supposedly "performance enhancing" medications, i.e. also taught at every American University. But then neither the American hospitals nor American drugged up runners seem to be benefitting much from that expertise now do they.
The dumb Americans exposing such "consiracy theories" ;) don't really know as much as they think.
48 wrote:
Might be useful for you to review Viren's career, it was not as shockingly up & down as you think. Did you know Vaatainen or train with him or complete against him to have these suspicions?
The respondent above makes the best possible argument for Viren's legitimacy, and I will admit that it deserves to be taken very seriously. Did I train with Vaatainen? Did you? What in the world does that have to do with the price of onions in Afghanistan or with opinions on Letsrun?
We can only speculate about others in the '70's, but with Waldemar, we have the first-ever *confirmed* distance doper. In a strange way, he was kind of a pioneer!
Frank Snorter's accusations of WC are like GWB saying there were WMD in Iraq.
A former Finnish world record holder in the steeplechase from the late '60s admitted to blood doping.
one way to skin it wrote:
We can only speculate about others in the '70's, but with Waldemar, we have the first-ever *confirmed* distance doper. In a strange way, he was kind of a pioneer!
[quote]penn doc wrote:
A former Finnish world record holder in the steeplechase
from the late '60s admitted to blood doping.
[quote]
Yup. It probably actually started ca. 1968 and was an "underground" thing in the years leading up to 1971, when it became more widely known in the athletics world.
dunes runner wrote:
It's hilarious that it's the Americans who KNOW all of Cierpinski's "secrets", yet they have no clue how he trained and no interest in such things.
Why? Because these Americans are ONLY interested in the drugs, and it's the AMERICANS who seem to know all about them.
As far as I'm concerned this says it all about who the experts are in the use and abuse of various supposedly "performance enhancing" medications, i.e. also taught at every American University. But then neither the American hospitals nor American drugged up runners seem to be benefitting much from that expertise now do they.
The dumb Americans exposing such "consiracy theories" ;) don't really know as much as they think.
dunes runner,
I always thought you were from northern Indiana, around the "region" area. Am I mistaken?
It's been extensively documented: Cierpinski was doped. I'm trying to find a primary source, but there are several reputable secondary sources.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A05E0DE173CF936A15753C1A96E958260
http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9807d&L=archives&D=1&P=14384
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_4731879,00.html
My question to you, though: if Shorter created those documents in his basement, why was he so anti-doping even in cases having nothing to do with him? Why did he get involved with USADA?
Frankly (no pun intended) I'm amazed that people here would consider Shorter a whiner for making noise about Cierpinski's druggery, low-key or otherwise.
If you were someone who dedicated four years of your life to repeating as Olympic Marathon champion and came in second to someone later exposed as a doper, what would YOUR reaction be? "Ah, well, he was a fun guy to run against and everyone makes mistakes."
This "it was a long time ago, get over it" garbage is especially ludicrous. If I told some of the 20-year-old punks on this board that I was the mail carrier your mom banged back in the day to get pregnat with you, would you just shrug your shoulders and pretend that your paternage was no different because some unofficial statute of fornications had expired?
saywhat?!?! wrote:
dunes runner,
I always thought you were from northern Indiana, around the "region" area. Am I mistaken?
I am not able to confirm this.
Some points to consider-
1) while I don't doubt Cierpinkski used drugs, will people STOP saying they have iron-clad evidence of documents that show him involved in a doping program if they can't produce them!! If WC's drug use is on the public record, give us a link to the damn document. So far, all I have seen on this thread is-
a) public records of an East German drug program in general, but no specific mention of WC, except...
b) as mentioned by FRANK SHORTER! Wow, there's an unbiased opinion on the matter.
So...put up or shut up. IF these documents that mention WC's name exist, link to it.
2) As far WC's alleged drug use and Viren's alleged blood doping, while both very well might be true, why on god's green earth do you people believe that all American runners of that era(like Shorter) were clean??? We've already seen that "straight-laced" "good-guys" like Hamilton and Landis and Gatlin might cheat, why not guys like Shorter, Pre and others of that era?? And I am dead serious. Steroids were around (clearly that's what the East Germans were using), blood doping existed (with possibly the Finns and other partaking), and....
AMPHETAMINES had been around for awhile. Pro Cyclists had been using "speed" for years. And I have a first hand-account from a top US marathoner of the 60's who was as naive and pure a person you could meet, that went like this-
a fellow straight-laced US runner one day said my friend should try this "energy booster" he had. My friend that I spoke to said that at first he thought it would be a drink, and was surpised to see a pill. He had never taken a drug in his life, and naively thought that it was some herbal cold pill or something. He popped it and went on a 28 mile run, one of the absolute best and fastest of his life he said. He couldn't believe how great he felt and how fast he ran, especially after having felt crappy the last several weeks . He was amazed by his run, and was feeling good that night, but then........he couldn't fall asleep at all that night, and was real tired the next day. Whoops.... He never tried that again. Despite helping him run fast, it freaked him out and realized it was a mistake to try something he didn't know about and could be bad for him or illegal.
Yeah, he had taken speed, and it worked wonders for his run. It gave him absolute surge of adrenaline, and boosted his endurance for hours. How do you think speed freaks stay up for a week without crashing? Speed is an amazing drug (and amazingly bad for you, like steroids).
If my friend, the most innocent, and unconnected guy you could meet used it once with great success, who's to say which top US runners of the late 60's or early 70's did not successfully take amphetamines for some big races??? Or maybe they took roids or blood doped. You will , never, never know. But I am 100% confident at least one of the top US runners was cheating. The odds are just too likely that it occured.
Bottom line: it's more likely that WC and Viren cheated than many top American or say British runners of that era did, but please don't be so silly as to act like there isn't a VERY good chance that one of your US/British heroes, say, someone like Frank Shorter, could have been cheating too.
Bottom line: it's more likely that WC and Viren cheated than many top American or say British runners of that era did, but please don't be so silly as to act like there isn't a VERY good chance that one of your US/British heroes, say, someone like Frank Shorter, could have been cheating too.
But of course. That's all any sensible person would say. As everyone knows that has done any serious research on the subject at all, "drug" use in sports goes back at least to the 19th century, with stimulants being the primary "drug" of choice. Crude forms of testosterone were in use in the 1920s and 30s and synthetic testosterone came along in the 1950s. Many athletes from many countries had access to this stuff and most of it was not illegal.
The point with Cierpinski is that he was part of a government sponsored, systematic drug regime; that really does put him in a different category than people like Shorter or Pre.
The point with Viren's alleged blood-doping is that that particular "enhancement" appears not to have been in widespread use in 1972. Thus, if he did it, he almost certainly had a distinct advantage over most of his competitors.
old tymer wrote:
The point with Viren's alleged blood-doping is that that particular "enhancement" appears not to have been in widespread use in 1972. Thus, if he did it, he almost certainly had a distinct advantage over most of his competitors.
That's a pretty lousy reason to believe that Viren was a blood-doper.
If you look closely at Viren's career and race performances, you see an incredibly gifted athlete who progressed very rapidly over a period of several years from about 1967 through September 1972, setting world records at two miles, 5,000 meters, and 10,000 meters over a period of about two months in late summer 1972, and winning most of his races with ridiculous ease. If you look at his splits in races leading up to the '72 Games, you can see that he was in shape to crush the world records at 5,000 and 10,000 meters at least a month before the Games. Guys like Frank Shorter had pretty much conceded that Viren would win at least one gold medal in the '72 Games, based on his dominant performances that summer.
As far as I can tell, the blood-doping rumors about Viren were started and perpetuated by people who were never part of the elite running scene, and who were trying to come up with explanations for his overwhelming superiority and ability to peak in the Olympic Games. (When I was a student at M.I.T. in the late '70s, I participated in a seminar on sports nutrition in which a professor of nutrition and food science said that some of his colleagues were speculating that Viren's ability to run so many races in the '76 Games had come from eating a diet without carbohydrates, thereby inducing a state of ketosis that allowed him to run without glycogen -- another absurd theory without any evidence to support it.) I have never heard any of Viren's competitors even suggest that he was a doper. If you ask Frank Shorter, or Brendan Foster, or Bill Rodgers, or any of a number of other runners who got whipped by Viren when it really counted, they'll you that Viren was just an incredibly talented athlete who knew how to train and peak at just the right time.