The easy answer is that these guys and gals are just coaching off of personal experience (they probably ran HS track in the 90-00s) and the occasional highlight workout they see on YouTube. Most either don't know or don't have enough time to learn the science of running since they are often teachers first and coaches second. This was the case in our local league until recently, with maybe one or two HS having really dedicated coaches. Only one of those coaches had previous college running experience so his team would dominate XC and distance since everyone else was training sub optimally. I do think it is getting better though and was much worse a decade back.
Disagree.
It’s actually nothing to do with coaching techniques or being stuck in the past. It’s the exceptional difficulty of getting a group of boys (or girls) to dedicate to something as difficult as high mileage training.
On this site, many of us are running buffs. Outside this echo chamber, the majority of kids who get involved in track or XC have no intention of pursuing it seriously. It’s usually their second or third sport. Their parents don’t care. They don’t want to run in college. They have exams. They like girls.
They’re not going to run high mileage.
Moreover, to make matters worse, the one or two kids who *are* all in, pose the opposite problem. Unless you keep an eye on them, they start running way too much and turn up at training a few weeks later with calf strains and hip pains.
Wouldn’t change it for the world though. I love coaching and make sure I offer any kid the tools they need to extract as much talent as possible. I just wish it was as easy as simply running more.
You should go volunteer to coach at a HS so you can impalement your fantastic groundbreaking approach to distance running.
Report back to us on your success.
That’s a great suggestion, but is it ok if he ONLY volunteers at a (likely affluent) large HS with a well-established distance program that gets dozens and dozens of kids each season? Then, he’s gonna knock it out of the park!
…until it suddenly ISN’T that kind of school one day.
I dont care where... getting HS kids to run 60-80mpw and getting them to the starting line will be a great accomplishment.
It's partially just difficult to find the kids willing to do that. I'm lucky I ended up at a program where the coach had his eyes on the state crown off the bat, and built us slow and steady, let us love the sport before forcing the mileage. I didn't crest 50 until my senior winter (a little regrettably, but when you drop 4 minutes from frosh year its hard to complain) and its paid off great so far. Is putting kids at 30-35 mpw a bad idea when building a program or getting people into it? Absolutely not. Should you keep that volume for your developed/talented upperclassmen? Nope
That's a lot of time and a ton of miles. I remember after I graduated HS feeling bitter about how I had spent SO much time and effort on just running. I felt like I had missed out on a lot of things for a pretty small payoff. I can imagine if I'd been logging those kinds of miles it would have only been worse.
I coach children and they think winning is fun so we put in work. They appreciate being pushed.
I agree with OP that more volume rather than a low-volume high-intensity approach would be good for a lot of HS runners.
What doesn't make sense to me is ~80% of the replies, like this one, suggesting that a low-volume high-intensity program is not "work" or "being pushed."
Sure, I think most kids would run very well off a long block of 50-60 mpw featuring mostly easy running, a weekly tempo, daily strides, and some carefully applied race-pace sharpening.
But I disagree that programs with 35 mpw, 3-4 hard workouts a week and loads of 400s at mile-to-5k pace work are the "lazy" way. I've done both, and the higher-volume approach is in many ways much easier!
This right here is spot on. My 12 year old son is in 7th grade on our middle school XC and track teams. He was running around 20-25 miles a week with the types of workouts you mentioned and he didn't like it and didn't run particularly well either. Ran a best time of 22 and change in the 5K in a road race and 6:09 in the 1600. He was working and he was being pushed, but he didn't enjoy it and missed no opportunity to miss a run if I didn't make him.
I completely overhauled our program after the XC season and we've been focusing exclusively on easier easy runs and sub threshold pace long intervals with short recoveries. He just ran 20 low in the 5K and a 5:45 1600 and hit 37 miles last week and told me it is the best he's ever felt running. The increase in volume and decrease in intensity has not only made him faster, but also made him want to train and that's a huge part of the equation.
Obviously I'm not going to send a 12 year old out to run 50 miles a week, but what he is doing is sustainable and because he's seeing results it has created a positive feedback loop where he actually approached me today and said he wants to "maintain his mileage." I never would have heard that from him 6 months ago.
I agree with OP that more volume rather than a low-volume high-intensity approach would be good for a lot of HS runners.
What doesn't make sense to me is ~80% of the replies, like this one, suggesting that a low-volume high-intensity program is not "work" or "being pushed."
Sure, I think most kids would run very well off a long block of 50-60 mpw featuring mostly easy running, a weekly tempo, daily strides, and some carefully applied race-pace sharpening.
But I disagree that programs with 35 mpw, 3-4 hard workouts a week and loads of 400s at mile-to-5k pace work are the "lazy" way. I've done both, and the higher-volume approach is in many ways much easier!
This right here is spot on. My 12 year old son is in 7th grade on our middle school XC and track teams. He was running around 20-25 miles a week with the types of workouts you mentioned and he didn't like it and didn't run particularly well either. Ran a best time of 22 and change in the 5K in a road race and 6:09 in the 1600. He was working and he was being pushed, but he didn't enjoy it and missed no opportunity to miss a run if I didn't make him.
I completely overhauled our program after the XC season and we've been focusing exclusively on easier easy runs and sub threshold pace long intervals with short recoveries. He just ran 20 low in the 5K and a 5:45 1600 and hit 37 miles last week and told me it is the best he's ever felt running. The increase in volume and decrease in intensity has not only made him faster, but also made him want to train and that's a huge part of the equation.
Obviously I'm not going to send a 12 year old out to run 50 miles a week, but what he is doing is sustainable and because he's seeing results it has created a positive feedback loop where he actually approached me today and said he wants to "maintain his mileage." I never would have heard that from him 6 months ago.
Kids get better over time if they don't get injured or discouraged. Your overhaul is a continuation of training, not a restart.
He is 12? I recommend cutting his mileage by 20% and keeping him generally active, gaining strength, not being too repetitive as he grows. He will continue to improve. I have had two 12 year olds (now 17) far faster than that on the general plan that I am recommending.
This post was edited 12 minutes after it was posted.
Stuck in the 90s? I’d give coaches of today a little credit. My HS program was one of the best in my state and we did a lot more than not run. At the direction of coaches, we also chugged large quantities of fish oil, completed strange 80s-style aerobics dance workouts, and did much of our training in unbreathable rubber jackets.
I get that more miles will help kids run faster, but I think a lot of people on this thread need a reality check. Coaches are getting athletes with far less natural athletic ability than ever before. The good athletes have been involved at high level club sports for years and the kids we are getting are often just trying to get a PE credit or have a sport to put on their college application. I was at a track meet this weekend and what struck me (as it always does) when watching the slower heats is that the kids just don't know how to run, likely because they never ran around and had free play when they were younger - but that's a whole other thread.... Asking one of the those kids with little athletic ability/background and terrible form to even run 30 miles a week is going to be a disaster for everyone! The balancing act that we have to do as coaches and parents is figuring out how much our kids can tolerate and push them to that limit without crossing the line. This is especially challenging if you don't have the luxury of living in a place with a strong running community and don't have large numbers of kids to draw from. It's not about being stuck in the 90s or being ignorant about modern training methods, it's about reality - a kid who can't run an 8 minute mile shouldn't be doing double threshold workouts.
Also, I think adults sometimes don't realize the grind that high schoolers are on. If you want to be academically competitive, it means taking lots of AP (essentially college level) courses, while also being involved in clubs and/or community service, and if you're lucky trying to have a social life all while still growing!
Finally, FWIW, my daughter is a senior and got a nice athletic scholarship to a strong running school. She maxed out last summer at 50 miles a week and is currently running low 40s BUT she has NEVER been injured and had constant improvement throughout high school. That makes me think, there is lots of opportunity for her to improve in college, but who knows.
Because a lot of them grew up running in that era and never changed. And a lot of others were either afraid or not ambitious enough to put in the work and do more and want to keep telling themselves that they can be fast running only 30 miles per week and so can their athletes.
But ya, show me a kid running X:XX on 30 miles per week and they'll run faster than that if they'd run 50 miles per week. Eventually you reach diminishing returns, but 30-40 miles per week is nowhere near that level for a 3200m runner, or even a 1600m runner. If they're an 800m runner then that's perfectly fine to be in the 30-40 range and doing more intense workouts and more strength training.
I get that more miles will help kids run faster, but I think a lot of people on this thread need a reality check. Coaches are getting athletes with far less natural athletic ability than ever before. The good athletes have been involved at high level club sports for years and the kids we are getting are often just trying to get a PE credit or have a sport to put on their college application. I was at a track meet this weekend and what struck me (as it always does) when watching the slower heats is that the kids just don't know how to run, likely because they never ran around and had free play when they were younger - but that's a whole other thread.... Asking one of the those kids with little athletic ability/background and terrible form to even run 30 miles a week is going to be a disaster for everyone! The balancing act that we have to do as coaches and parents is figuring out how much our kids can tolerate and push them to that limit without crossing the line. This is especially challenging if you don't have the luxury of living in a place with a strong running community and don't have large numbers of kids to draw from. It's not about being stuck in the 90s or being ignorant about modern training methods, it's about reality - a kid who can't run an 8 minute mile shouldn't be doing double threshold workouts.
Also, I think adults sometimes don't realize the grind that high schoolers are on. If you want to be academically competitive, it means taking lots of AP (essentially college level) courses, while also being involved in clubs and/or community service, and if you're lucky trying to have a social life all while still growing!
Finally, FWIW, my daughter is a senior and got a nice athletic scholarship to a strong running school. She maxed out last summer at 50 miles a week and is currently running low 40s BUT she has NEVER been injured and had constant improvement throughout high school. That makes me think, there is lots of opportunity for her to improve in college, but who knows.
That's the whole point of coaching, teaching kids to do it better. Some aren't willing to work with the kids that don't know how to run and build them to 30 mpw. There is a big difference between 15 mile per week programs running intervals every day and those doing 80 mpw and double threshold. Many programs are able to build the kids up in mileage and get them running consistently EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO RUN. If you haven't found a way to do that as a coach, then you just aren't trying.
Man, 80 mile weeks in HS. I guess you are doubling more days than not and doing some type of workouts during the week all while taking no days off (and going to school 7 hrs a day). That's a more demanding schedule than most colleges.
I love running and racing, but I wouldnt want that for my child.
As a coach who is presumably stuck in the 90s, have a go at asking a group of 15 year olds to run 80k per week.
Let me know how it goes.
Good luck and God’s speed.
I've been doing that for decades and since you asked "How it goes"...I'd say pretty well. As a coach, you have to be able to sell them on "why" they should do it and offer a doable progression that gets them to that point. Most kids join a sport because they want to be successful at something. It's up to you to provide that plan and sell it. It is indisputable that the sport of running has improved tremendously over the last 2+ decades as more and more coaches are leaving 90s-influenced coaching behind.
Most kids join a sport because they want to be successful at something.
This isn't true. Some kids might be that way, but most kids are joining a sport because they think it is fun and enjoy doing it, OR because they have friends that are on the team and they want to be around their friends.
I wish that you were right, because if kids just wanted to be a part of something successful, we would have a lot more kids out for XC and track at our school than we do.
Simple answer is practice time - like you get normal students for 5 practice a week so its just most optimal to run easy 3 days a week and do 2 days a week of miles or 1Ks or 400ms.
As a coach who is presumably stuck in the 90s, have a go at asking a group of 15 year olds to run 80k per week.
Let me know how it goes.
Good luck and God’s speed.
I've been doing that for decades and since you asked "How it goes"...I'd say pretty well. As a coach, you have to be able to sell them on "why" they should do it and offer a doable progression that gets them to that point. Most kids join a sport because they want to be successful at something. It's up to you to provide that plan and sell it. It is indisputable that the sport of running has improved tremendously over the last 2+ decades as more and more coaches are leaving 90s-influenced coaching behind.
Would I be correct in thinking you’re an American?
I broadly agree with you, but as a coach in the UK, our setup is very different. Almost all competitive running is organised through local clubs and has nothing to do with schools. We’re not able to draw on the sporting formality of school or college, inviting different kids to try out and join the team. I’m not suggesting that makes the realities of coaching any easier, simply that you might have a larger pool of potential to work with.
I’m based in London and our club has had nationally competitive boys one year and then teams that barely qualify as bipeds the next. It feels more like luck than design, at least in terms of the hand you get dealt.
Our challenge really is in simply getting a team out. In my U15s team, I’ve got two lads who are all in and as committed as possible, but the rest are mainly there for the vibes.
I really do think running hard, especially when it comes to XC, has to come from the individual themselves. It’s a niche activity. It hurts. You have to pay your dues. A coach can nurture it, support it, develop it and celebrate it. But it’s very hard to ignite in someone.
I found the issue to be that kids constantly have excuses. The years I coached it was one complaint after another. The kids just didn't have fun putting in the work. My son was the most consistent runner on the team and he averaged about 50mpw his senior year. No one wanted to run with him. If he did 8 miles. everyone else would do 6. If we went 7:00 pace they would go 8:00 pace. He would do 1000s, they would stop after 800 and say it was too hard. I found it very hard to motivate these kids.
I come from a wealthy suburb of a large city and the major sports have sucked away anyone willing to work hard. The promise of scholarships and private teams is just too big of an allure. Our school has everything too and everyone is type A. Basically means if running is not YOUR thing, it quickly becomes very part time.
What was most frustrating is that the kids that showed up wanted to be good. They just didn't want to work at it. Incredibly incredibly soft.
Thanks for the insight, that is crazy--you'd think if they were all type-As they'd be grinders.