I doubt if Salazar, Gerry, Chapa, Prefontaine and many others cried about this. It made them the great runners they were.
Horrible example. Prefontaine never lost to an international athlete at an NCAA championships and all of his best NCAA competitors were American.
When Pre ran at the NCAA Championships, the stadium would be SOLD OUT. People were genuinely really interested in watching the best American NCAA runners compete.
Loser makes excuses and cries for a safe space. Tale as old as time.
Nobody is making excuses. People are just concerned about the future of our sport the NCAA.
Due to the massive influx of old, doping Kenyans that don't even speak English, interest in our sport at the NCAA level is at an ALL TIME LOW.
Participation in cross country and track in high school are at all time highs, while interest in the NCAA level is at rock bottom. Clearly fans are not interested in the product that the NCAA is putting out.
When Athletic Directors realize they have to put 17 scholarships into Kenyans just to be top 15 in the NCAA, and then they still only have 25 fans show up at home meets they are going to ask questions. Can those resources be used in a way to improve other sports that generate revenue? Cross Country + Track programs are going to get cut.
1- age limits - cut off is their 24th birthday. No competition beyond that
2- limit of 2-3 foreigners on any roster of 17
of course everyone will complain or split hairs on this but there are age limits I believe in other sports and some professional leagues only allow a couple foreigners (i am thinking maybe soccer/wuropean hockey)
1- age limits - cut off is their 24th birthday. No competition beyond that
2- limit of 2-3 foreigners on any roster of 17
of course everyone will complain or split hairs on this but there are age limits I believe in other sports and some professional leagues only allow a couple foreigners (i am thinking maybe soccer/wuropean hockey)
Another problem is the Africans will simply provide fake birth certificates stating a 27 year old is 19. Soccer introduced the MRI wrist test because of the massive levels of age-cheating from African nations, not only East Africans, but from all of North Africa, and from the Nigerians, and from Cameroon … you name it, the countries were cheating. It’s actually an interesting story in itself. It’s also a sad lesson, as one realizes that we can’t take them at their word for anything.
Loser makes excuses and cries for a safe space. Tale as old as time.
Nobody is making excuses. People are just concerned about the future of our sport the NCAA.
Due to the massive influx of old, doping Kenyans that don't even speak English, interest in our sport at the NCAA level is at an ALL TIME LOW.
Participation in cross country and track in high school are at all time highs, while interest in the NCAA level is at rock bottom. Clearly fans are not interested in the product that the NCAA is putting out.
When Athletic Directors realize they have to put 17 scholarships into Kenyans just to be top 15 in the NCAA, and then they still only have 25 fans show up at home meets they are going to ask questions. Can those resources be used in a way to improve other sports that generate revenue? Cross Country + Track programs are going to get cut.
Complaining that there are foreigners faster so they must be doping is 100% excuse making. It’s a loser mentality. Do you think Hocker and Nuguse get Olympic medals if they had been coddled in an NCAA safe space?
Nobody is making excuses. People are just concerned about the future of our sport the NCAA.
Due to the massive influx of old, doping Kenyans that don't even speak English, interest in our sport at the NCAA level is at an ALL TIME LOW.
Participation in cross country and track in high school are at all time highs, while interest in the NCAA level is at rock bottom. Clearly fans are not interested in the product that the NCAA is putting out.
When Athletic Directors realize they have to put 17 scholarships into Kenyans just to be top 15 in the NCAA, and then they still only have 25 fans show up at home meets they are going to ask questions. Can those resources be used in a way to improve other sports that generate revenue? Cross Country + Track programs are going to get cut.
Complaining that there are foreigners faster so they must be doping is 100% excuse making. It’s a loser mentality. Do you think Hocker and Nuguse get Olympic medals if they had been coddled in an NCAA safe space?
Hocker never got a challenge from an international guy in the mile/1500. He dominated Kipsang by 2 seconds indoors. Hocker and Nuguse were nearly 2 seconds ahead of Suliman outdoors.
So yes, they 100% still get Olympic medals because the international guys never even helped them or pushed them.
The NCAA system actually helps international athletes BEAT our domestic athletes at the Olympics by providing them funding and training that they wouldn't have in their home countries. Look at athletes like De Grasse, Julien Alfed, Josh Kerr and many more.
Complaining that there are foreigners faster so they must be doping is 100% excuse making. It’s a loser mentality. Do you think Hocker and Nuguse get Olympic medals if they had been coddled in an NCAA safe space?
Hocker never got a challenge from an international guy in the mile/1500. He dominated Kipsang by 2 seconds indoors. Hocker and Nuguse were nearly 2 seconds ahead of Suliman outdoors.
So yes, they 100% still get Olympic medals because the international guys never even helped them or pushed them.
The NCAA system actually helps international athletes BEAT our domestic athletes at the Olympics by providing them funding and training that they wouldn't have in their home countries. Look at athletes like De Grasse, Julien Alfed, Josh Kerr and many more.
You are being very simplistic to say that just because Hocker was dominant in college that he didn’t benefit from not being coddled. Rising tide raises all boats. If it was an American safe space there is a 0% chance him or Nuguse or Fisher get to where they are
Loser makes excuses and cries for a safe space. Tale as old as time.
Nobody is making excuses. People are just concerned about the future of our sport the NCAA.
Due to the massive influx of old, doping Kenyans that don't even speak English, interest in our sport at the NCAA level is at an ALL TIME LOW.
Participation in cross country and track in high school are at all time highs, while interest in the NCAA level is at rock bottom. Clearly fans are not interested in the product that the NCAA is putting out.
When Athletic Directors realize they have to put 17 scholarships into Kenyans just to be top 15 in the NCAA, and then they still only have 25 fans show up at home meets they are going to ask questions. Can those resources be used in a way to improve other sports that generate revenue? Cross Country + Track programs are going to get cut.
Interest is at an all time low? When was it ever high? I ran college track 30 years ago. We ran in empty stadiums then, just like they do now. No one cared...just like now. This is nothing new.
If you want passionate, engaged spectators, you chose the wrong sport.
1- age limits - cut off is their 24th birthday. No competition beyond that
2- limit of 2-3 foreigners on any roster of 17
of course everyone will complain or split hairs on this but there are age limits I believe in other sports and some professional leagues only allow a couple foreigners (i am thinking maybe soccer/wuropean hockey)
Another problem is the Africans will simply provide fake birth certificates stating a 27 year old is 19. Soccer introduced the MRI wrist test because of the massive levels of age-cheating from African nations, not only East Africans, but from all of North Africa, and from the Nigerians, and from Cameroon … you name it, the countries were cheating. It’s actually an interesting story in itself. It’s also a sad lesson, as one realizes that we can’t take them at their word for anything.
True. Some of the stories are hilarious. 32 year old Nigerians and Morooccans claiming to be 18. Seems lime the average age of the cheats was at least 6 to 8 years older than what they claimed.
Nearly every region was dominated by Kenyans that are clearly doping.
You want us to believe that there are 100 "CLEAN" college aged Kenyans now in the NCAA that are better than all but a few American college aged kids? When American pro runners are now performing better than Kenyans in nearly every distance event on the track? And a lot of Kenya's best young athletes stay in Kenya and are on pro contracts, so we are supposed to believe that Kenya has 200 young clean athletes that are all better then everyone but the top 5 or 6 Americans.
It's beyond belief. And it's ruining the sport. They are dirty and it is making our sport lose fans in mass numbers.
Hocker never got a challenge from an international guy in the mile/1500. He dominated Kipsang by 2 seconds indoors. Hocker and Nuguse were nearly 2 seconds ahead of Suliman outdoors.
So yes, they 100% still get Olympic medals because the international guys never even helped them or pushed them.
The NCAA system actually helps international athletes BEAT our domestic athletes at the Olympics by providing them funding and training that they wouldn't have in their home countries. Look at athletes like De Grasse, Julien Alfed, Josh Kerr and many more.
You are being very simplistic to say that just because Hocker was dominant in college that he didn’t benefit from not being coddled. Rising tide raises all boats. If it was an American safe space there is a 0% chance him or Nuguse or Fisher get to where they are
That's just not true, his only real competition was Nuguse and Teare (both Americans). How did slower international athletes help Hocker when they were 2 seconds behind?
It's a more legit argument that being able to race Nuguse and Hocker helped a foreigner like Garcia Romo be successful and get 4th in the World in 2022, beating Americans in the process.
Nobody is making excuses. People are just concerned about the future of our sport the NCAA.
Due to the massive influx of old, doping Kenyans that don't even speak English, interest in our sport at the NCAA level is at an ALL TIME LOW.
Participation in cross country and track in high school are at all time highs, while interest in the NCAA level is at rock bottom. Clearly fans are not interested in the product that the NCAA is putting out.
When Athletic Directors realize they have to put 17 scholarships into Kenyans just to be top 15 in the NCAA, and then they still only have 25 fans show up at home meets they are going to ask questions. Can those resources be used in a way to improve other sports that generate revenue? Cross Country + Track programs are going to get cut.
Interest is at an all time low? When was it ever high? I ran college track 30 years ago. We ran in empty stadiums then, just like they do now. No one cared...just like now. This is nothing new.
If you want passionate, engaged spectators, you chose the wrong sport.
I posted videos of NCAA championships during Pre's years with the stadiums fully packed.
Yes, the sport was massively popular back before the flood of foreigners came in ruined viewership. People don't want to pay money to watch 5 Kenyans compete for the AMERICAN National Collegiate Championship.
You are being very simplistic to say that just because Hocker was dominant in college that he didn’t benefit from not being coddled. Rising tide raises all boats. If it was an American safe space there is a 0% chance him or Nuguse or Fisher get to where they are
That's just not true, his only real competition was Nuguse and Teare (both Americans). How did slower international athletes help Hocker when they were 2 seconds behind?
It's a more legit argument that being able to race Nuguse and Hocker helped a foreigner like Garcia Romo be successful and get 4th in the World in 2022, beating Americans in the process.
Again, you are viewing it to simplistically.
”You are being very simplistic to say that just because Hocker was dominant in college that he didn’t benefit from not being coddled. Rising tide raises all boats. If it was an American safe space there is a 0% chance him or Nuguse or Fisher get to where they are”
The internationals in NCAA has raised the level of competition for DECADES. Hocker benefitted from that elevation of expectation as opposed to isolation.
Interest is at an all time low? When was it ever high? I ran college track 30 years ago. We ran in empty stadiums then, just like they do now. No one cared...just like now. This is nothing new.
If you want passionate, engaged spectators, you chose the wrong sport.
I posted videos of NCAA championships during Pre's years with the stadiums fully packed.
Yes, the sport was massively popular back before the flood of foreigners came in ruined viewership. People don't want to pay money to watch 5 Kenyans compete for the AMERICAN National Collegiate Championship.
I started running in 1967 and have followed the sport closely ever since. It was more popular as a spectator sport then than now but it was NEVER massively popular. There were definitely meets that drew big crowds, the US-USSR meets did very well as did the Penn and Drake Relays and some NCAA championships. But the "How can we make track more popular" letter turned up in Track and Field News with some regularity.
It's true that some people won't want to pay to watch five Kenyans compete for an American national championship. But Henry Rono drew some decent sized crowds in his day. If you think massive crowds are going to start turning up to watch cross country and track if there were no Kenyans you are way off base.
There is no question that the excessive influx of over age, foreign recruits is diluting grassroots interest in the sport. As has been mentioned over and over here, because there is no backstory fans can simply not get interested. But really this reflects on us as a society more than anything else. As many have pointed out there are easy solutions here: 1: age limit, 2. roster cap of foreign recruits. Thus, you could fill a missing gap but not construct your entire roster from abroad. This would also force the schools to be very careful about the athletes they recruit and force them to establish real relationships with them before an offer. How many of the current foreign recruits are actually flown to the university, meet the team and treated like a properly recruited athlete? Domestic athletes go through a real process were fit is important. Fans are really disgusted by the mail order quality of the current set up and it pays no respect to the recruited athlete.
So here we are, the fans, the only people who are really interested in the sport, proposing very simple and logical suggestions that will get zero traction. Meanwhile, some uninterested AD's will get a slight rush off of some nameless state university with mail order athletes finishing 4th in XC in a big conference. Apparently we as a society value winning more than we do developing student athletes from within our own country.
All of this points to the fact that the women's national championship is far more compelling at the moment. We have multiple domestically focused teams that are fully in the mix. The men's side is almost completely dominated by foreign athletes and there is very little interest being shown. This is where it is all going if the the NCAA doesn't start getting more involved.
Blah, Blah, Blah, they have been saying this since the 70's with Henry Rono, Samson Kimobwa, Wilson Waigwa, John Ngeno and many others and nothing has changed. No rules changed. But no matter hon many Kenyas are dropped in Conner Mantz is still a double cross country champion, and others beat the best of Kenya including Justyn Knight, Syracuse, Morgan McDonald, Charles Hicks, and Graham Blanks, twice as well as Katelyn Tuohy, and Parker Valby, and it looks like Jane Hedengren may beat them by 30 seconds! Nothing has changed since the 70's when people were saying the same thing and back then it even made the New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/1977/03/15/archives/issue-and-debate-is-college-recruiting-of-foreigners-excessive-by.html ;
AI Overview+1 Henry Rono's dominance in NCAA cross country from 1976 to 1979 coincided with a debate over the age of foreign athletes, where some Americans complained about competing against older international runners. For example, Craig Virgin, a 21-year-old American senior, expressed frustration about racing Rono, a 25-year-old freshman from Kenya, at a time when college athletes were typically 18 or 19. The debate highlighted issues such as the unfairness of a younger athlete facing a more seasoned competitor and the impact on American-only scholarships, though it was also noted that some international athletes were older due to factors like military service or religious missions.
People have been saying this for a few years now, but as someone who started following the sport in 2020, I’ve gotta say that ncaa XC/TF is far less dominated by Kenyans than when Ches was competing. Home grown Mormons won nationals last year, an American won 2x back to back for the first time since Mantz just 5 years ago, and on the women’s side, an American true freshman looks like the favorite for the individual title.
Maybe this will be the year that Kenyans just win everything. I’m waiting till nationals to come to my conclusion.
Blah, Blah, Blah, they have been saying this since the 70's with Henry Rono, Samson Kimobwa, Wilson Waigwa, John Ngeno and many others and nothing has changed. No rules changed. But no matter hon many Kenyas are dropped in Conner Mantz is still a double cross country champion, and others beat the best of Kenya including Justyn Knight, Syracuse, Morgan McDonald, Charles Hicks, and Graham Blanks, twice as well as Katelyn Tuohy, and Parker Valby, and it looks like Jane Hedengren may beat them by 30 seconds! Nothing has changed since the 70's when people were saying the same thing and back then it even made the New York Times ;
AI Overview+1 Henry Rono's dominance in NCAA cross country from 1976 to 1979 coincided with a debate over the age of foreign athletes, where some Americans complained about competing against older international runners. For example, Craig Virgin, a 21-year-old American senior, expressed frustration about racing Rono, a 25-year-old freshman from Kenya, at a time when college athletes were typically 18 or 19. The debate highlighted issues such as the unfairness of a younger athlete facing a more seasoned competitor and the impact on American-only scholarships, though it was also noted that some international athletes were older due to factors like military service or religious missions.
Justyn Knight, Morgan Mcdonald, and Charles Hicks were international. 3 of your 5 examples are literally internationals.