Not to mention, Irvine is accessible by 5 airports offering a lot of flight options for any teams traveling in. I've read that a UT school even adds Disneyland to their itinerary.
From a recruiting standpoint, Woodbridge has college coaches from all over the country. Clovis is a classic, known course to CA colleges/universities (sub-18:15 for women at Woodward Park is a standard for recruiting at some D1 schools in the state). If I lived in CA, I would do both. If I was traveling in, I'd do Woodbridge hands-down.
I didn't say anything about needing to go, or anything about American Fork. I'm addressing the Clovis vs. Woodbridge choice that programs may make if they are going to travel on the west coast.
While Eagle is looking great on paper, I doubt they start the season with the same firepower as they did at the end of last xc season because of injuries and/or illness. Here are the top 5 guys for Boise and Eagle. #1: Sen. Ben Hugaboom (4:27, 9:28, 16:04) vs. Sen. Jeremiah Peterson (1:59, 4:22, 17:19) #2: Jun. Luke Bruce (4:29, 9:46, 15:45) vs. Sen. Maxwell Taggart (4:25, 9:33, 16:10) #3: Jun. Miles McGee (4:37, 9:50, 15:38) vs. Sen. Jackson Porter (4:42, 10:10, 15:55) #4: Soph. Austin Johnston (4:35, 9:45, 17:35) vs. Jun. Johnny Culpepper (4:44, 9:55, 15:54) #5: Sen. Michael Restuccia (4:39, 10:06, 16:25) vs. Jun. Kyle Pelham (4:35, 9:48, 16:49) Even on paper, I think Boise has the upper hand based on how deep they are. (Keep in mind McGee, Restuccia, Taggart, Pelham, Porter, Culpepper, and Peterson were likely either sick or injured for some portion of the season (based on a decrease in performance from past results))
Porter ran 9:54 at Simplot. That's a better mark than any Boise runner has other than Hugaboom given it was run indoors and at 4500'. Culpepper has the single best XC performance out of any of these guys and probably anybody at Jimmy Driscoll. Realistically, a healthy Eagle has the order of Culpepper, Porter, Taggart, Petersen, and Pelham.
A better comparison is:
#1: Sen. Ben Hugaboom (4:27, 9:28, 11th at state 3200m) vs. Jun. Johnny Culpepper (4:44, 9:55, 12th at state cross, spent most of the track season hurt or sick) #2: Jun. Luke Bruce (4:29, 9:46) vs. Sen. Jackson Porter (4:42, 9:54) #3: Jun. Miles McGee (4:37, 9:50) vs. Maxwell Taggart (4:25, 9:33) #4: Soph. Austin Johnston (4:35, 9:45) vs. Sen. Jeremiah Peterson (1:59, 4:22) #5: Sen. Michael Restuccia (4:39, 10:06) vs. Jun. Kyle Pelham (4:35, 9:48)
I removed the XC times fore everyone because it's silly to compare those but added best accolades to Culpepper and Hugaboom as they are probably similar credentials when both are healthy.
It's more practical to compare Firman/State/NXR times between the teams as well since both schools ran that course 3 times. Boise is returning 16:37, 16:12, 16:33, 18:23, and 17:03 on that course (Johnston was just a freshman, the 5th best mark for Boise was actually 17:02). Their 5 fastest times are a 16:41 average. Eagle is returning 15:54, 16:07, 16:28, 17:16, and 17:20. They also have a 16:46 and a 17:24 that aren't in the top 5 runners that you highlighted. Eagle's 5 fastest times are a 16:30 average. As far as depth, they have 10:04, 10:14, and 10:17 as their next 3 best guys. Boise has 4:37, 4:41, and 4:41 as their next 3.
Boise is good and so is Eagle. Both are at least 7 deep. I hope that Eagle is healthy and ready to go at Jimmy Driscoll because it could be a fun meet early in the year between Boise, Mountain View, and Eagle.
Oh yeah definitely. I just put the top 5 times based off of track times and nothing else.
But after seeing it written like that I feel like it’s going to be a lot closer. But I still think Boise’s going to pull it off just because of their depth and the fact that Eagle’s top runners are probably still coming off of injury. Eagle’s going to be a force to reckon with by districts though.
Not to mention, Irvine is accessible by 5 airports offering a lot of flight options for any teams traveling in. I've read that a UT school even adds Disneyland to their itinerary.
From a recruiting standpoint, Woodbridge has college coaches from all over the country. Clovis is a classic, known course to CA colleges/universities (sub-18:15 for women at Woodward Park is a standard for recruiting at some D1 schools in the state). If I lived in CA, I would do both. If I was traveling in, I'd do Woodbridge hands-down.
1. Not in about 30 years.
2. Not in about 25 years.
If my concern was going to a nice destination to build interest in my program instead of getting value experience for the runners in my program, I would probably send my team to Iolani rather than Woodbridge or Clovis. But that wasn't my intention when I put out that list. Instead, it was getting my theoretical JV runners a fifth meet to race in (or more likely 6th with the money saved by not flying to and staying overnight for Hole in the Wall because I could then better be capable of bringing them to NXR). Mountain West is a close meet that offers good enough competition while still being able to bring your JV to the meet. There isn't another option like that in the other open weeks for schools in reasonable proximity to the Spokane/CdA area. And Clovis still offers a similar experience for a varsity that would be hoping to not only qualify but place well at NXN.
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
Not to mention, Irvine is accessible by 5 airports offering a lot of flight options for any teams traveling in. I've read that a UT school even adds Disneyland to their itinerary.
From a recruiting standpoint, Woodbridge has college coaches from all over the country. Clovis is a classic, known course to CA colleges/universities (sub-18:15 for women at Woodward Park is a standard for recruiting at some D1 schools in the state). If I lived in CA, I would do both. If I was traveling in, I'd do Woodbridge hands-down.
1. Not in about 30 years.
2. Not in about 25 years.
If my concern was going to a nice destination to build interest in my program instead of getting value experience for the runners in my program, I would probably send my team to Iolani rather than Woodbridge or Clovis. But that wasn't my intention when I put out that list. Instead, it was getting my theoretical JV runners a fifth meet to race in (or more likely 6th with the money saved by not flying to and staying overnight for Hole in the Wall because I could then better be capable of bringing them to NXR). Mountain West is a close meet that offers good enough competition while still being able to bring your JV to the meet. There isn't another option like that in the other open weeks for schools in reasonable proximity to the Spokane/CdA area. And Clovis still offers a similar experience for a varsity that would be hoping to not only qualify but place well at NXN.
Spokane to Seattle flights can be had for $147 today. Hotel rooms are ~$30 per kid. You're looking at $200-$215 to go to Hole in the Wall and 72 minutes on a plane plus an hour in vans vs. 2.5 hours on a bus to Missoula and then back again. That trip is going to be $4k for a bus, so you're looking at maybe $100 per kid savings. If CDA crosses over 45-50 kids on their team, it turns into two buses and it's roughly the same cost for a lower quality meet.
Spokane to Fresno is $276 for nearly 6 hours of travel once a layover is considered. Woodbridge is $157 and under 3 hours. Woodbridge is a more affordable trip, easier travel, better competition, and more fun.
If my concern was going to a nice destination to build interest in my program instead of getting value experience for the runners in my program, I would probably send my team to Iolani rather than Woodbridge or Clovis. But that wasn't my intention when I put out that list. Instead, it was getting my theoretical JV runners a fifth meet to race in (or more likely 6th with the money saved by not flying to and staying overnight for Hole in the Wall because I could then better be capable of bringing them to NXR). Mountain West is a close meet that offers good enough competition while still being able to bring your JV to the meet. There isn't another option like that in the other open weeks for schools in reasonable proximity to the Spokane/CdA area. And Clovis still offers a similar experience for a varsity that would be hoping to not only qualify but place well at NXN.
Spokane to Seattle flights can be had for $147 today. Hotel rooms are ~$30 per kid. You're looking at $200-$215 to go to Hole in the Wall and 72 minutes on a plane plus an hour in vans vs. 2.5 hours on a bus to Missoula and then back again. That trip is going to be $4k for a bus, so you're looking at maybe $100 per kid savings. If CDA crosses over 45-50 kids on their team, it turns into two buses and it's roughly the same cost for a lower quality meet.
Spokane to Fresno is $276 for nearly 6 hours of travel once a layover is considered. Woodbridge is $157 and under 3 hours. Woodbridge is a more affordable trip, easier travel, better competition, and more fun.
Perhaps I am underestimating how much it would cost to bus kids 330 miles (round trip), but 4k seems pretty excessive. At 10 mpg, that's about $105 in gas in CdA and Missoula. Even if the bus only got 5 mpg, that's still only $210. To add another 3.8-3.9k for a bus driver and the bus itself seems absurd.
And I already went over the differences in competition: it's not that significant between Woodbridge/Clovis and Hole in the Wall/Mountain West. The point of the whole exercise was to give JV kids an extra meet they don't currently have access to without sacrificing the experience gain of going to significant meets for the varsity athletes, because Idaho schools don't run league meets to get JV runners that experience. Only letting inexperienced kids run 4-5 times a season isn't very compelling for building a program up.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Now that Firman is gone, Rocky's schedule is atrocious. The best team that they will race in the regular season not in their district is Hermiston. Hermiston returns 4:23, 4:29, 4:29, 4:39 and 4:41. Their 3200m times are 9:15, 9:43, 9:58, 10:12, and 10:30. For the girls, it's probably Twin Falls.
Spokane to Seattle flights can be had for $147 today. Hotel rooms are ~$30 per kid. You're looking at $200-$215 to go to Hole in the Wall and 72 minutes on a plane plus an hour in vans vs. 2.5 hours on a bus to Missoula and then back again. That trip is going to be $4k for a bus, so you're looking at maybe $100 per kid savings. If CDA crosses over 45-50 kids on their team, it turns into two buses and it's roughly the same cost for a lower quality meet.
Spokane to Fresno is $276 for nearly 6 hours of travel once a layover is considered. Woodbridge is $157 and under 3 hours. Woodbridge is a more affordable trip, easier travel, better competition, and more fun.
Perhaps I am underestimating how much it would cost to bus kids 330 miles (round trip), but 4k seems pretty excessive. At 10 mpg, that's about $105 in gas in CdA and Missoula. Even if the bus only got 5 mpg, that's still only $210. To add another 3.8-3.9k for a bus driver and the bus itself seems absurd.
And I already went over the differences in competition: it's not that significant between Woodbridge/Clovis and Hole in the Wall/Mountain West. The point of the whole exercise was to give JV kids an extra meet they don't currently have access to without sacrificing the experience gain of going to significant meets for the varsity athletes, because Idaho schools don't run league meets to get JV runners that experience. Only letting inexperienced kids run 4-5 times a season isn't very compelling for building a program up.
Sure, Mountain West is a big meet, but the difference between the two is gigantic. One has all of the top Washington schools and Jesuit and the other has a bunch of mid to low tier Idaho teams, Montana teams and then Bozeman. Mead is at Mountain West but they are also at Hole in the Wall, so it's a wash.
Woodbridge has Herriman, Crater, Southlake Carroll, and all of the California teams that would be at Clovis. They have the opportunity to race the top teams from 3 other regions at Woodbridge vs. one region at Clovis. That alone is a massive difference between the two meets.
A lot of charter bus companies charge for fuel, mileage and then an additional fee of $150-$200 per hour. Sitting around at a meet also runs up the cost, just at a reduced rate. I found an instant quote tool that looks like a 5.5-6 hours round trip costs $2600 before fuel surcharges that look like they could be another $400.
Spokane to Seattle flights can be had for $147 today. Hotel rooms are ~$30 per kid. You're looking at $200-$215 to go to Hole in the Wall and 72 minutes on a plane plus an hour in vans vs. 2.5 hours on a bus to Missoula and then back again. That trip is going to be $4k for a bus, so you're looking at maybe $100 per kid savings. If CDA crosses over 45-50 kids on their team, it turns into two buses and it's roughly the same cost for a lower quality meet.
Spokane to Fresno is $276 for nearly 6 hours of travel once a layover is considered. Woodbridge is $157 and under 3 hours. Woodbridge is a more affordable trip, easier travel, better competition, and more fun.
Perhaps I am underestimating how much it would cost to bus kids 330 miles (round trip), but 4k seems pretty excessive. At 10 mpg, that's about $105 in gas in CdA and Missoula. Even if the bus only got 5 mpg, that's still only $210. To add another 3.8-3.9k for a bus driver and the bus itself seems absurd.
And I already went over the differences in competition: it's not that significant between Woodbridge/Clovis and Hole in the Wall/Mountain West. The point of the whole exercise was to give JV kids an extra meet they don't currently have access to without sacrificing the experience gain of going to significant meets for the varsity athletes, because Idaho schools don't run league meets to get JV runners that experience. Only letting inexperienced kids run 4-5 times a season isn't very compelling for building a program up.
From a quick search on the internet (so obviously not perfect), it would seem that the cost for a bus to go to Mountain West would cost around 2k +/- ~200 (~600 for rental, 200 flat for driver, $3/mile for driver, and $105-210 for gas depending on mileage). If we assume 42 kids on these trips, going to Hole in the Wall using your figures would be $6174 for airfare and $1260 for hotel rooms, plus whatever the cost would be to rent a the bus or multiple vans necessary to transport kids to and from the airport and hotel and course over the course of 2 days. I have to imagine the cost for that would at least approach the cost for the bus in the first place. How are you coming up with only $100 per kid in savings in this context?? Honest question, because as I said I don't have all the info here. You don't have to pay for hotel rooms for e.g. 42 kids plus coaches, you don't have to pay for airfare, and in both scenarios you are paying some amount of transporting 42 kids + coaches by bus or multiple vehicle. The hotel expenses alone is half of the total expense for the bus, and the airfare is more than 5x the hotel expenses and you still haven't even gotten to the 2 day vehicle rental(s) yet.
No doubt Woodbridge is a competitive meet, it’s just not true XC. I think it’s been said on 3 straight years of these Idaho threads that I’ve followed that Rocky values keeping the whole team together thus they don’t go to a meet unless they can bus all 100+ on a day trip. Looking at it from my perspective as someone that used to compete in their district, Rocky has found a way to be successful still so not sure if it’s an issue. Here’s their last three years state and NXR finishes for girls and boys. I don’t think the idea is to punch on lower competition at all, it’s more a commitment to what they’ve said they believe is right for their team. Another reason for people to dislike them.
I know that times in XC aren't everything, but a simulation of Mountain West has Mead winning, Bozeman 2nd, Mt. Spokane 3rd, and Cheney 4th. Mead is 5th at Hole in the Wall and Mt. Spokane is 12th. Glacier Peak is running both and is 9th at Mountain West and 27th at Hole in the Wall. Sugar Salem is 6th at Mountain West. They are maybe 10th best in Idaho?
Perhaps I am underestimating how much it would cost to bus kids 330 miles (round trip), but 4k seems pretty excessive. At 10 mpg, that's about $105 in gas in CdA and Missoula. Even if the bus only got 5 mpg, that's still only $210. To add another 3.8-3.9k for a bus driver and the bus itself seems absurd.
And I already went over the differences in competition: it's not that significant between Woodbridge/Clovis and Hole in the Wall/Mountain West. The point of the whole exercise was to give JV kids an extra meet they don't currently have access to without sacrificing the experience gain of going to significant meets for the varsity athletes, because Idaho schools don't run league meets to get JV runners that experience. Only letting inexperienced kids run 4-5 times a season isn't very compelling for building a program up.
Sure, Mountain West is a big meet, but the difference between the two is gigantic. One has all of the top Washington schools and Jesuit and the other has a bunch of mid to low tier Idaho teams, Montana teams and then Bozeman. Mead is at Mountain West but they are also at Hole in the Wall, so it's a wash.
Woodbridge has Herriman, Crater, Southlake Carroll, and all of the California teams that would be at Clovis. They have the opportunity to race the top teams from 3 other regions at Woodbridge vs. one region at Clovis. That alone is a massive difference between the two meets.
A lot of charter bus companies charge for fuel, mileage and then an additional fee of $150-$200 per hour. Sitting around at a meet also runs up the cost, just at a reduced rate. I found an instant quote tool that looks like a 5.5-6 hours round trip costs $2600 before fuel surcharges that look like they could be another $400.
I already went over the differences between Clovis and Woodbridge in another post. To not spend too much time rehashing: it's not that significant. The top 60 runners at Woodbridge is about on par with the top 50 runners at Clovis; Woodbridge had a better top 2 teams, but both had the same amount of NXN Top 15-20 type teams and the same amount of NXR caliber teams.
As for Hole in the Wall vs. Mountain West: Mountain West gets most of the GSL + all of the Montana teams and some other schools here and there. Hole in the Wall gets some of the Seattle teams and Jesuit. Yes that's a more significant difference than Clovis vs. Woodbridge in most years, but that's not THAT huge. Last year was a bit of an exception because a lot of the GSL teams didn't travel to Mountain West; that's not usually the case (or at least it wasn't, and doesn't look to be in 2025). Mead, Lewis & Clark, Cheney, Mt. Spokane, Central Valley, University, North Central, Joel Ferris, Lakeland (ID) and a few other Spokane/CdA area schools are scheduled to be there this year as well as Glacier Peak from the westside and a couple Southern Idaho schools as well (though not the big Boise area schools). That's a strong field before you even add in the best of Montana (not saying it'll be better than Hole in the Wall, but all those teams being there paints a much different picture than you saw in 2024).
I know that times in XC aren't everything, but a simulation of Mountain West has Mead winning, Bozeman 2nd, Mt. Spokane 3rd, and Cheney 4th. Mead is 5th at Hole in the Wall and Mt. Spokane is 12th. Glacier Peak is running both and is 9th at Mountain West and 27th at Hole in the Wall. Sugar Salem is 6th at Mountain West. They are maybe 10th best in Idaho?
The top of one meet is so much better.
What is this "simulation" based on? Raw 5k XC PRs entered into Athletic.net? If so, that would strongly favor athletes who run on fast/flat courses. Of course that will make a meet like Hole in the Wall look even better compared to Mountain West where half of the athletes are running at altitude for the vast majority if not all of their races and might never be running on a course specifically laid out to be fast.
Sure, Mountain West is a big meet, but the difference between the two is gigantic. One has all of the top Washington schools and Jesuit and the other has a bunch of mid to low tier Idaho teams, Montana teams and then Bozeman. Mead is at Mountain West but they are also at Hole in the Wall, so it's a wash.
Woodbridge has Herriman, Crater, Southlake Carroll, and all of the California teams that would be at Clovis. They have the opportunity to race the top teams from 3 other regions at Woodbridge vs. one region at Clovis. That alone is a massive difference between the two meets.
A lot of charter bus companies charge for fuel, mileage and then an additional fee of $150-$200 per hour. Sitting around at a meet also runs up the cost, just at a reduced rate. I found an instant quote tool that looks like a 5.5-6 hours round trip costs $2600 before fuel surcharges that look like they could be another $400.
I already went over the differences between Clovis and Woodbridge in another post. To not spend too much time rehashing: it's not that significant. The top 60 runners at Woodbridge is about on par with the top 50 runners at Clovis; Woodbridge had a better top 2 teams, but both had the same amount of NXN Top 15-20 type teams and the same amount of NXR caliber teams.
As for Hole in the Wall vs. Mountain West: Mountain West gets most of the GSL + all of the Montana teams and some other schools here and there. Hole in the Wall gets some of the Seattle teams and Jesuit. Yes that's a more significant difference than Clovis vs. Woodbridge in most years, but that's not THAT huge. Last year was a bit of an exception because a lot of the GSL teams didn't travel to Mountain West; that's not usually the case (or at least it wasn't, and doesn't look to be in 2025). Mead, Lewis & Clark, Cheney, Mt. Spokane, Central Valley, University, North Central, Joel Ferris, Lakeland (ID) and a few other Spokane/CdA area schools are scheduled to be there this year as well as Glacier Peak from the westside and a couple Southern Idaho schools as well (though not the big Boise area schools). That's a strong field before you even add in the best of Montana (not saying it'll be better than Hole in the Wall, but all those teams being there paints a much different picture than you saw in 2024).
The difference between Clovis and Woodbridge is that you see Herriman, SLC, and Crater at Woodbridge. If we are comparing major meets, Clovis is also much later in the season and much harder travel than Woodbridge. If we are comparing weeks, Woodbridge is easier travel and much better competition. Hole in the Wall is easier travel than Clovis.
The simulation I ran for those two meets are with the teams confirmed to be going this year. There's an absolutely massive difference. The top 10 teams in the simulation at Hole in the Wall are Jesuit, CDA, Vacaville, Redmond, Mead, West Ranch, Sehome, Eagle, Poway, Hermiston. The top 10 teams in the simulation at Mountain West are Mead, Bozeman, Mt. Spokane, Cheney, Helena, Sugar-Salem, North Central, Hardin, Glacier Peak, and Lewis and Clark.
Perhaps Emry Carr cares about how much travel is happening when in the season? Especially since we watched Crater do a big travel trip late in the year to Clovis and then melt down at NXR.
I know that times in XC aren't everything, but a simulation of Mountain West has Mead winning, Bozeman 2nd, Mt. Spokane 3rd, and Cheney 4th. Mead is 5th at Hole in the Wall and Mt. Spokane is 12th. Glacier Peak is running both and is 9th at Mountain West and 27th at Hole in the Wall. Sugar Salem is 6th at Mountain West. They are maybe 10th best in Idaho?
The top of one meet is so much better.
What is this "simulation" based on? Raw 5k XC PRs entered into Athletic.net? If so, that would strongly favor athletes who run on fast/flat courses. Of course that will make a meet like Hole in the Wall look even better compared to Mountain West where half of the athletes are running at altitude for the vast majority if not all of their races and might never be running on a course specifically laid out to be fast.
Sure, but the Washington teams that are racing at both are significantly lower at Hole in the Wall vs Mountain West.