How many doping allegations did Jewett get from going from 1:47.12 to 1:43.85 in one year? What about a 27 year old Hoppel going from 1:43.95(fastest time in 3 year) to 1.41.67 ?
Jewett went from 1:46.11 to 1:43.85, both outdoors, without winning.
Hoey went from 1:47.67 to 1:43.24 indoors, winning clearly.
Hoppel got lots of doping allegations, and rightfully so imho.
Whether or not you think Hoey is dirty, the jump from 1:47 to 1:43 is less of a jump and more of races catching up to training and natural ability. Not even a strong drug cocktail is worth 4 seconds in the 800, especially not in 1 year. Try doping up a handful of NCAA 1:47 guys and you won't see a Hoey story because Hoey was not a regular 1:47 guy.
If you told me a 1:47 high schooler would run 1:43 that makes sense. To some the stagnation makes this look more suspicious but to me it's 5 years of improving different stimulus. Each coach was likely improving a different part of Hoey (Threshold, aerobic power, anerobic power, top-end speed, etc) but not striking the right balance needed to translate that to an 800m race. Part of this is him not sticking with a coach for more than 1 season as he would have likely been an official 1:45 guy earlier.
Looking forward to him being tested more and still having success
A drug cocktail would easily be worth 4 seconds, especially if for five years he tried everything else and there is evidence that no training style worked. You don't know that the NCAA 1:47 guys wouldn't improve. You're making assumptions.
A phenom high schooler automatically improving is not a given. This is well known.
You are over-emphasizing the individual focus of each of Hoey's coaches. That is not how it happened. You are either mis-informed here or didn't closely read part one of JG's article.
I actually agree with your last sentence of your second paragraph. The stagnation is entirely Josh Hoey's fault and not the coaches' fault.
I don't wish him success. I want Hoey to fail because he is obviously a drug cheat who is getting away with metaphorically robbing a bank in broad daylight.
Whether or not you think Hoey is dirty, the jump from 1:47 to 1:43 is less of a jump and more of races catching up to training and natural ability. Not even a strong drug cocktail is worth 4 seconds in the 800, especially not in 1 year. Try doping up a handful of NCAA 1:47 guys and you won't see a Hoey story because Hoey was not a regular 1:47 guy.
If you told me a 1:47 high schooler would run 1:43 that makes sense. To some the stagnation makes this look more suspicious but to me it's 5 years of improving different stimulus. Each coach was likely improving a different part of Hoey (Threshold, aerobic power, anerobic power, top-end speed, etc) but not striking the right balance needed to translate that to an 800m race. Part of this is him not sticking with a coach for more than 1 season as he would have likely been an official 1:45 guy earlier.
Looking forward to him being tested more and still having success
A drug cocktail would easily be worth 4 seconds, especially if for five years he tried everything else and there is evidence that no training style worked. You don't know that the NCAA 1:47 guys wouldn't improve. You're making assumptions.
A phenom high schooler automatically improving is not a given. This is well known.
You are over-emphasizing the individual focus of each of Hoey's coaches. That is not how it happened. You are either mis-informed here or didn't closely read part one of JG's article.
I actually agree with your last sentence of your second paragraph. The stagnation is entirely Josh Hoey's fault and not the coaches' fault.
I don't wish him success. I want Hoey to fail because he is obviously a drug cheat who is getting away with metaphorically robbing a bank in broad daylight.
I would NOT say drugs are not worth 4 seconds in the 800 in one year, if they were we would see ALOT more improvement stories like this. There are clearly other improvement factors here beyond drugs no matter how dirty you think he is.
A phenom high schooler will not always become a world class runner, but a world class runner is almost always a U20 phenom.
I wasn't intending to say each coach was single-minded in their focus, just that each was likely hitting a different key stimulus with different training styles. I am talking about Hoey's response to the training not the plan itself. Obviously 5 years of stagnation happened but he was likely improving different physiological markers and making progress in workouts but there was always a limiting factor preventing going under 1:47 be it speed, endurance, or maybe just mental blocks who knows.
At this point I just want athletes to be tested as often as possible to limit their doping frequency and levels to an even playing field. I hope you can find some enthusiasm to cheer on Hoey if he's kicking down Sedjati
An overlooked part is Hoey wasn’t your traditional phenom in HS.
He’d been working with a world class coach since 7th grade.
it’s why comparing him to Murphy or whoever is missing a key point. They hadn’t been training at a high level for long. And had their big jumps once they finally did.
Hoey has had world class coaching since he was 12.
The 1:43.24 was winning an indoor championship in a dominant fashion, indicative of at least a 1:42 in a paced outdoor race.
He almost got outkicked. He just barely won.
He won by 1.03 seconds....
Flotrack wrote: The indoor American record holder, Josh Hoey, led the field through 400m in 50.36, as Brandon Miller and Jonah Koech were hot on his trail. After the bell, Hoey was able to pull away for his first national title and a new American record. The 25-year-old crossed the finish line in 1:43.24, the fastest ever by an American indoors. Miller was runner-up in 1:44.26, a PB, and five-time DII national champion Wes Ferguson was third in 1:44.92, also a lifetime best.
World Athletics wrote: After a comfortable run in his heat on Saturday evening, Hoey returned on Sunday for the final and took command of the field early on. Despite a small challenge at the break, he led from start to finish, sprinting down the final straight knowing he was heading to a record mark.
i had a suspicion this guy was doping before this story. now im sure he is.
I'm stunned by the cynical reactions to the story.
I loved it and makes me a fan. I'm also stunned by the hatred of the well off.
To everyone who 'knows' he's doping because his dad spent $4-5 million on a track, please tell me why he'd even bother with that. If he was going to take short cuts, why not just buy the drugs?
And if it's just drugs, why didn't the brothers all come down 4 seconds as well last year?
Fran is certainly over the top but I love the love the family has for each other.
One of the best parts of the story comes in Part II which is avaialable now for SC members.
Jgault wrote:
After their first workout in Albuquerque, Rinaldi was sold on Hoey’s potential. He turned to Fran Hoey with a question: How hasn’t he run 1:44 yet?
“I said, if I can’t get this guy to run 1:44, there’s something wrong with me,” Rinaldi said.
You're out of touch then. They come off as spoiled, whatever puff piece this is supposed to be is pretty easy to see through. Most pros who struggle as much as he did those 3-4 years would've lost their contract and would've had to grow up and get a job. Thank goodness for that fake Liberty degree and daddy's money though!
So much jealousy of people with money in this thread. Every one of the complainers would kill their own mothers for a seven figure winning lottery ticket, but if someone else has money they are bad. Your bolshevik media and cluless teachers has done a great job of brainwashing. It’s hilarious.
The jealousy is very typical of leftists. They hate the rich - if it’s someone else. If they have money however, they deserve it.
Nice article, but longer doesn't mean better. It could have been half as long and just as good. It's easy to write long. It's hard to sum up a lot of reporting succinctly. LRC needs to bring in a real journalist to edit JG.
How many doping allegations did Jewett get from going from 1:47.12 to 1:43.85 in one year? What about a 27 year old Hoppel going from 1:43.95(fastest time in 3 year) to 1.41.67 ?
Jewett went from 1:46.11 to 1:43.85, both outdoors, without winning.
Hoey went from 1:47.67 to 1:43.24 indoors, winning clearly.
Hoppel got lots of doping allegations, and rightfully so imho.
Nope he was in 1:47:12 shape and went to 1:43.85. He had run 1:46 in the past but he wasn’t in that shape in 2020. Maybe it was covid. Maybe it was super shoes. Maybe it was injuries. Progression isn’t linear.
Using your numbers 1:47.67 indoors at 18 to 1:43.24 7 years later is just about what i would expect. That part that bothers everyone is the 5 years of stagnation. It happens but it is pretty rare
So much jealousy of people with money in this thread. Every one of the complainers would kill their own mothers for a seven figure winning lottery ticket, but if someone else has money they are bad. Your bolshevik media and cluless teachers has done a great job of brainwashing. It’s hilarious.
The jealousy is very typical of leftists. They hate the rich - if it’s someone else. If they have money however, they deserve it.
No. You would call me a “leftist” and I don’t think his progress means he’s doping and I don’t have any problem with the family spending or having the money, and even if the dad is over the top or hard to deal with, people are complex and imperfect - the family has worked hard for a long time.
please don’t assume that reactions are “leftist” or maga or whatever.
Doping is always an explanation for performance. But the gap between 1:47 and 1:43 can easily be injuries. You can go count the times someone ran a 1:44 and the next year they don’t break 1:47 cause of injuries. The reverse can also happen.
How many doping allegations did Jewett get from going from 1:47.12 to 1:43.85 in one year? What about a 27 year old Hoppel going from 1:43.95(fastest time in 3 year) to 1.41.67 ?
Personally I think all the pro picked up 1-1.5s by hoping on the bicarb train over the past couple years which makes the gains from nailing training after bit smaller.
The other thing is how many other 24 year old can keep going? If I am a 22 year old who just ran 1:47.5 and maybe qualified for the NCAA but not the finals. What are the chances I can get someone to subsidize me for 2 more years to chase my dreams? It makes it hard to know what is the normal range of progression.
Your first point is valid.
Your second point is assumptive. We don't know that Jewett and Hoppel were not doping. They may have been and just not have been caught.
Your third point is your ballpark opinion without concrete scientific evidence.
Your fourth point is speculative, but either way involves some kind of theoretical objective standard of progress which may or may not exist and ignores the subjective progressive of each individual. Individuals may vary to such a degree that there is no exterior normal range of progress.
2 yep. Everyone could be doping. If you start at 17 you will not have big jumps later. WeJo moving to the hills, shooting up EPO and dropping2 mins off his 10k looks a lot more suspicious than say Jeromone Young doping it up in HS to run 45.01 and then only progressing to a 44.
3 there are a bunch of studies about the effects of bicarbonate on performance 1-1.5s is a pretty average with some outliers. It also explains why we went from a 1:44 being a top 10 time in 2022/23 to 1:42.43 in 2024.. And a couple of the dudes specifically said they started taking it and you can see how much faster Arop was. Now when hoey started? No clue.
4 yep. I am just pointing out that this isn’t a situation we see that often. Guys at this level don’t go pro and get to train hard core very often. They get jobs. Who know what would happen if every 1:47 guy was paid to train all out for a couple years what would happen.
To everyone who 'knows' he's doping because his dad spent $4-5 million on a track, please tell me why he'd even bother with that. If he was going to take short cuts, why not just buy the drugs?
Between this and the "why would Shelby dope if she doesn't wear supershoes" argument, Rojo's defense of people who will talk to LRC is hilarious.
If Hoey's dad didn't buy a track, he'd be saying "If he wanted his son to be fast so badly that he was doping him, why wouldn't he buy a $5M track? This proves he wasn't doping."
The jealousy is very typical of leftists. They hate the rich - if it’s someone else. If they have money however, they deserve it.
No. You would call me a “leftist” and I don’t think his progress means he’s doping and I don’t have any problem with the family spending or having the money, and even if the dad is over the top or hard to deal with, people are complex and imperfect - the family has worked hard for a long time.
please don’t assume that reactions are “leftist” or maga or whatever.
To everyone who 'knows' he's doping because his dad spent $4-5 million on a track, please tell me why he'd even bother with that. If he was going to take short cuts, why not just buy the drugs?
Between this and the "why would Shelby dope if she doesn't wear supershoes" argument, Rojo's defense of people who will talk to LRC is hilarious.
If Hoey's dad didn't buy a track, he'd be saying "If he wanted his son to be fast so badly that he was doping him, why wouldn't he buy a $5M track? This proves he wasn't doping."
Always interesting to see the different treatment of athletes Rojo likes compared to those he doesn’t like.
You're out of touch then. They come off as spoiled, whatever puff piece this is supposed to be is pretty easy to see through. Most pros who struggle as much as he did those 3-4 years would've lost their contract and would've had to grow up and get a job. Thank goodness for that fake Liberty degree and daddy's money though!
These posts are so ridiculous. Yes, OBVIOUSLY Hoey is spoiled. You think he doesn't know that? But what can a spoiled kid do with his life? Becoming a world class athlete seems like a pretty good and worthwhile option. That's also something you can't buy even though the money obviously helps.