This is a silly debate. Just experiment with it and report back. Some probably respond better than others. If it helps great. If not, run another threshold session wink
-
12
-
Its 4 servings, so its $20 per serving. $20 for a goal race doesn't seem too bad, assuming you already spent a decent amount on supershoes, race kit, race entry, travel, training, etc.
22 -
bigmig19 wrote:
snake oiI wrote:
Go ahead, waste your money. If you aren't interested in how your body actually works, then you will always be a fool for such things.
Consensus statement:
International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: sodium bicarbonate and exercise performance
Jozo Grgic 1, Zeljko Pedisic 2, Bryan Saunders 3 4, Guilherme G Artioli 5, Brad J Schoenfeld 6, Michael J McKenna 2, David J Bishop 2, Richard B Kreider 7, Jeffrey R Stout 8, Douglas S Kalman 9 10, Shawn M Arent 11, Trisha A VanDusseldorp 12, Hector L Lopez 13 14, Tim N Ziegenfuss 13, Louise M Burke 15, Jose Antonio 16, Bill I Campbell 17
Affiliations Expand
PMID: 34503527
PMCID: PMC8427947
DOI: 10.1186/s12970-021-00458-w
Abstract
Based on a comprehensive review and critical analysis of the literature regarding the effects of sodium bicarbonate supplementation on exercise performance, conducted by experts in the field and selected members of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN), the following conclusions represent the official Position of the Society: 1. Supplementation with sodium bicarbonate (doses from 0.2 to 0.5 g/kg) improves performance in muscular endurance activities, various combat sports, including boxing, judo, karate, taekwondo, and wrestling, and in high-intensity cycling, running, swimming, and rowing. The ergogenic effects of sodium bicarbonate are mostly established for exercise tasks of high-intensity that last between 30 s and 12 min. 2. Sodium bicarbonate improves performance in single- and multiple-bout exercise. 3. Sodium bicarbonate improves exercise performance in both men and women. 4. For single-dose supplementation protocols, 0.2 g/kg of sodium bicarbonate seems to be the minimum dose required to experience improvements in exercise performance. The optimal dose of sodium bicarbonate dose for ergogenic effects seems to be 0.3 g/kg. Higher doses (e.g., 0.4 or 0.5 g/kg) may not be required in single-dose supplementation protocols, because they do not provide additional benefits (compared with 0.3 g/kg) and are associated with a higher incidence and severity of adverse side-effects. 5. For single-dose supplementation protocols, the recommended timing of sodium bicarbonate ingestion is between 60 and 180 min before exercise or competition.There are also studies that show no effect. But acidity does affect performance contrary to your statement, you can say its not lactate per se, but it goes hand in hand with H+ and lower PH. Reduction of acidity is needed for muscle to recover contractility. So it makes perfect sense to raise PH a bit. In vivo studies show bicarb does raise PH of extracellular environment, so its getting past stomach somehow.
If we consider we consider what is mostly fueling the muscles, it is muscle glycogen/lactate, both anaerobically and aerobically. And when the individual motor units are rapidly depleted, they have to be refuelled by blood glucose and that is the source of the acidity, because blood glucose uses an ATP entering the cell and adds an H+
So, essentially muscle glycogen depletion causes the accumulation of H+ and this is true in every race distance, but more accute in 400/800 races.
So the acidity in the muscles is a fueling issue.
Sometimes we set off too fast and the result is more muscle fatigue/acidity at the end of the race. But how much does it affect our overall time is debatable. So the subjective feeling of acidosis will inevitably vary from race to race.
05 -
bigmig19 wrote:
Dude, you have to stop with the "biochemistry" angle. We get that "lactic acid" is not what we were taught 30 years ago. That's not the intention here. The intracellular and extracellular PH is low during vigorous exercise. Think protons. That's called acidic, and in theory a buffer might help to the extent you can transport it there. That..is simple biochem.
The evidence is anecdotal and research showing a boost is company-funded.
ISSN is not taken seriously by anyone in the US. It's a low-tier organization to the point where their PT and other fitness certs are mostly ignored by gyms hiring trainers. Their study, like Nike's "studies" on super shoes, were sponsored by companies planning to sell it to the market.
11 -
Got it.
HS, College and World performance lists and medal counts should add a "company funded" and "marketing" column.
Next we could suggest "tried harder".
Nothing to see here.
10 -
The real answer wrote:
EXNIKE1992 wrote:
Shoot your shot.
HS: 15%
College: 30%
Pro: 70%
'23, '24 Times don't lie.
That's closer to the percentages of runners at each level who ever know about it let alone how it works and what it can do. Even if their coaches mention it for most part it's in one ear and out the other.
Even at the elite level the percentage probably isn't higher than single digits. It's a gimmick, and while familiar it's not even a big enough deal to be much of a fad right now.
How about a quote from Jerry along the lines of "I don't even know what bicarb is" or that he never heard of it?
10 -
snake oiI wrote:
speakeroftruth wrote:
Google Maurten Bicarb System
Marketing BS, which many suckers will fall for.
The acidity in your muscles has natural buffers, the first of which is lactate production from muscle glycogen. So with proper training and race pacing, you can control acidosis in a race.
Look at how the fastest runners do this in 400 and 800 meter races. They don't decelerate as much as the other runners and they aren't in obvious distress.
"...and they aren't in obvious distress."
Like Quincy Wilson puking after his 44.20?
Like Robby Andrews puking after a 1500 at the Trials?
Like Nigel Amos being carted off on a stretcher after the London 2012 800m final?
Like Tom Courtney? They had to delay the medal ceremony an hour after he won the 1956 Olympic 800m because he was so wiped out. Here's what he said about how he felt down the stretch:
“It was a new kind of agony for me,” Courtney said of that moment in an interview with Runner’s World magazine in 2001. “My head was exploding, my stomach ripping. Even the tips of my fingers ached. The only thought in my mind was, ‘If I live, I’ll never run again.’ I felt it all slipping away, but then I looked at the tape and realized that this was the only chance I would ever have.”
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O. and under other names?
40 -
Maurten has been doing a great job of marketing, but from what I hear, at least half of people using it can't tolerate it. If you can tolerate it, that's fine. But most of the top cyclists have moved to other products. Tadej/UAE uses Enervit 2:1 Pro gel. Nobody wants to cycle for hours or run a marathon and get GI issues...
21 -
SlowFatMaster wrote:
snake oiI wrote:
Marketing BS, which many suckers will fall for.
The acidity in your muscles has natural buffers, the first of which is lactate production from muscle glycogen. So with proper training and race pacing, you can control acidosis in a race.
Look at how the fastest runners do this in 400 and 800 meter races. They don't decelerate as much as the other runners and they aren't in obvious distress.
"...and they aren't in obvious distress."
Like Quincy Wilson puking after his 44.20?
Like Robby Andrews puking after a 1500 at the Trials?
Like Nigel Amos being carted off on a stretcher after the London 2012 800m final?
Like Tom Courtney? They had to delay the medal ceremony an hour after he won the 1956 Olympic 800m because he was so wiped out. Here's what he said about how he felt down the stretch:
“It was a new kind of agony for me,” Courtney said of that moment in an interview with Runner’s World magazine in 2001. “My head was exploding, my stomach ripping. Even the tips of my fingers ached. The only thought in my mind was, ‘If I live, I’ll never run again.’ I felt it all slipping away, but then I looked at the tape and realized that this was the only chance I would ever have.”
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O. and under other names?
There are far more examples of elite runners who don't display this didtress after running faster than your examples, yet you keep ignoring this and posting the same thing over and over. Why?
01 -
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O.?
I have not used the example of Quincy Wilson before.
I have used the example of Nijel Amos before.
It sounds like you are really good at figuring out who is in distress and who is not just by watching them.
Would you consider Wayde van Niekerk to be someone who is in distress after a 400 or someone who is not in distress after a 400?
10 -
Maurten is way too expensive.
I figured I could use baking soda in a half smashed banana and I don´t have any GI issues. Price per dosage, about 20/50p, depending on where you buy your bananas.
I started with small dose, and now I'm around the recommended dose.Don't assume you'll have GI issues. Try, and see for yourself.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted. Reason provided: Extra info added00 -
Tried it this morning..
Bicarb 19. Mixed it and first mouthful made me want to vomit.
Took about 25% of it and couldn’t swallow any more.
Tempo run felt normal so not sure if 25% was enough to make a difference. Seen as I have 3 more portions will try once more but tbh the thought of it at the moment makes me want to puke.
10 -
SlowFatMaster wrote:
snake oiI wrote:
Marketing BS, which many suckers will fall for.
The acidity in your muscles has natural buffers, the first of which is lactate production from muscle glycogen. So with proper training and race pacing, you can control acidosis in a race.
Look at how the fastest runners do this in 400 and 800 meter races. They don't decelerate as much as the other runners and they aren't in obvious distress.
"...and they aren't in obvious distress."
Like Quincy Wilson puking after his 44.20?
Like Robby Andrews puking after a 1500 at the Trials?
Like Nigel Amos being carted off on a stretcher after the London 2012 800m final?
Like Tom Courtney? They had to delay the medal ceremony an hour after he won the 1956 Olympic 800m because he was so wiped out. Here's what he said about how he felt down the stretch:
“It was a new kind of agony for me,” Courtney said of that moment in an interview with Runner’s World magazine in 2001. “My head was exploding, my stomach ripping. Even the tips of my fingers ached. The only thought in my mind was, ‘If I live, I’ll never run again.’ I felt it all slipping away, but then I looked at the tape and realized that this was the only chance I would ever have.”
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O. and under other names?
Good examples, also don't forget Wayde Van Niekerk after the WC final in 2015
00 -
6.233213213565613231%
00 -
RunCzar wrote:
Its 4 servings, so its $20 per serving. $20 for a goal race doesn't seem too bad, assuming you already spent a decent amount on supershoes, race kit, race entry, travel, training, etc.
They send it based on your body weight. Type in 300 pounds if your weight is 150 and cut everything in half. You get 8 servings at $10 per serving. This is what many people are doing.
20 -
acidosis is hell wrote:
SlowFatMaster wrote:
"...and they aren't in obvious distress."
Like Quincy Wilson puking after his 44.20?
Like Robby Andrews puking after a 1500 at the Trials?
Like Nigel Amos being carted off on a stretcher after the London 2012 800m final?
Like Tom Courtney? They had to delay the medal ceremony an hour after he won the 1956 Olympic 800m because he was so wiped out. Here's what he said about how he felt down the stretch:
“It was a new kind of agony for me,” Courtney said of that moment in an interview with Runner’s World magazine in 2001. “My head was exploding, my stomach ripping. Even the tips of my fingers ached. The only thought in my mind was, ‘If I live, I’ll never run again.’ I felt it all slipping away, but then I looked at the tape and realized that this was the only chance I would ever have.”
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O. and under other names?
Good examples, also don't forget Wayde Van Niekerk after the WC final in 2015
Wow! I just looked at the replay and the aftermath. I had forgotten all of it. Thanks!
00 -
SlowFatMaster wrote:
acidosis is hell wrote:
Good examples, also don't forget Wayde Van Niekerk after the WC final in 2015
Wow! I just looked at the replay and the aftermath. I had forgotten all of it. Thanks!
He looks more relieved than distressed. Watch it again. Then watch his World Record on Rio one year later.
Or do you just want to keep this stupid argument going for another 20 years?
I think I know the answer.
00 -
snake oiI wrote:
SlowFatMaster wrote:
Wow! I just looked at the replay and the aftermath. I had forgotten all of it. Thanks!
He looks more relieved than distressed. Watch it again. Then watch his World Record on Rio one year later.
Or do you just want to keep this stupid argument going for another 20 years?
I think I know the answer.
"He looks more relieved than distressed. Watch it again"
Watch from 8:39 to 8:42, then watch from 10:27 to the end.
Are you the guy who used to post as J.O.?
10 -
kool-aid man wrote:
The 1500 "up" part makes the question more challenging and vague. At 1500-10k, I bet more than 70% of the high level pros are using it (lower level pros can't afford it if they aren't getting it free). Beyond 10k, it falls, but its probably still 50% at marathon distance. Not commenting on how well it works, but the high level pros are all drinking the bicarb koolaid, which probably tells you something (it works).
I think youre being a smartass about the "kool aid" and that the pros are taking. However, the comment that the lower levels cant afford bicarb has me rolling on the floor. Like, how bad are these semipros doing that the arm and hammer breaks the bank lmao.
00 -
Nobody talks more about the 400 than Michael Johnson. But you don't hear him banging on about fatigue do you?
But you do hear him banging on about execution, execution, execution.
Or have you not been paying attention?
00
What People Are Talking About On LetsRun
No top threads at the moment. Check back soon.