We talked about this thread a lot on the podcast and also debated Fisher vs Donavan Brazier in terms of talent and career. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
What does Grant’s mind do exactly? Can he override oxygen debt and bend steel with it. What is the conversion factor for Grant’s mind? Maybe one second per lap if transplanted to another runner?
You have the same conceit as many others, in believing an athlete wins because of mental toughness and not just talent. It’s an insult to other elite athletes. Pre used to make the same claim and in one of the Pre movies, Bowerman called him out on it.
He means that Grant's smarts allow him to have a small but crucial edge against other guys with similar raw ability (26:20-30 East Africans for example). Training smarter, not peaking early and tactically making the most out of his fitness in championships which allowed him to medal and finish ahead of the likes of Kejelcha.
Doesn’t every medal winner do the same thing? Does Fisher have more smarts than Hocker?
That's what cracks me up about this board. You get the personality type who loves running, but is also very conscientious about career and financial stability. Then on the same board, you get the guys who scratch their heads on how american distance running is terrible compared to the rest of the world. Everyone hops into the ncaa, parties their butts off, chasing that dentist job, never going all in. Better to be safe than ever realize your potential.
you should definitely work your butt off trying to be all you can be while your in it. and if it's not clear, the guy im talking about is not at 13:06 when he graduates. He chasing the time and ends up with a 13:06 when he's 27. and then probably gets a little slower for two or three years before moving on to real life.
Again, it's a fair choice to do that. If you can afford to chase your dream doing something that is stimulating, you do it. If just getting to that point isn't good enough for you, and you feel like there will always be 10-20-30 guys in the country better than you, than move on.
I don’t think Grant Fisher had any legitimate reason to win 2 bronzes at Olympics. It’s a clear scandal to me
No one you coached had the talent of Fisher. You would have won a huge lottery if you did.
I’m tempted to say talent my foot!
ever heard of Chris Derrick and German Fernandez? Oh yea these 2 had a million times more talent individually than Grant.
Grant won foot locker in an era without the level of talent of Chris Derrick and German fernandez so is Grant really that talented? Grant runs with a very unusual idiosyncratic foot strike and arm swing too, not fluid at all and simply wastes too much energy in motion in space and time compared to Derrick and Fernandez.
Grant should just eat grass he is not fit to compete
Fernandez and Fisher had close to equal ability in HS, but at that age, there can be a lot of physical maturity to go. Fernandez had a good freshman year at O.S.U., but stopped improving after that and ended up with 13:25/28:06 PRs. He had no where near the talent Fisher has.
There have been thousands and thousands of Americans distance runners and Fisher holds 3 ARs. He’s also the only American to win Olympic medals in the 5/10 since the ‘60s. He is the most talented American 5/10 runner ever and the closest thing to a East-African runner we’ve got.
ever heard of Chris Derrick and German Fernandez? Oh yea these 2 had a million times more talent individually than Grant.
Grant won foot locker in an era without the level of talent of Chris Derrick and German fernandez so is Grant really that talented? Grant runs with a very unusual idiosyncratic foot strike and arm swing too, not fluid at all and simply wastes too much energy in motion in space and time compared to Derrick and Fernandez.
Grant should just eat grass he is not fit to compete
Fernandez and Fisher had close to equal ability in HS, but at that age, there can be a lot of physical maturity to go. Fernandez had a good freshman year at O.S.U., but stopped improving after that and ended up with 13:25/28:06 PRs. He had no where near the talent Fisher has.
There have been thousands and thousands of Americans distance runners and Fisher holds 3 ARs. He’s also the only American to win Olympic medals in the 5/10 since the ‘60s. He is the most talented American 5/10 runner ever and the closest thing to a East-African runner we’ve got.
Fernandez was mostly a miler and ended up with the a 3:34 pb after he graduated and won the 1500m as freshman. He wasn’t a particular 5k10k specialist. Fisher was nowhere close to Fernandez at the shorter distances before graduation from college despite having better shoes than the ones Fernandez wore years earlier.
finally why can’t you think that Fernandez stopped improving despite joining BTC club as a professional because he rejected Jerry’s doping and preferred to run honest while Fisher almost instantly became a record breaking machine once he joined BTC because he complied?
it’s a different way of looking at things here. I look at it from a totalitarian space-time level.
That’s besides the point about Khamis but it had been raised countless times by him of Grant jetting off to Salt Lake City right smack in the middle of a highly nerve wrecking and pulsating Olympics trials for zero good enough reasons. I remembered that he said the only ever occasion in any profession of this world that this would be pardonable and excusable is the loss of a love one. You don’t just go back midway during your important job to sleep and rest. That’s not in line with ‘good thinking and good brains’. It must only be to collect and identify a dead body!!
was Grant going to see a dead body in Salt Lake City?
clearly not! He is twisted and dark. Something to hide and cover
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Fernandez and Fisher had close to equal ability in HS, but at that age, there can be a lot of physical maturity to go. Fernandez had a good freshman year at O.S.U., but stopped improving after that and ended up with 13:25/28:06 PRs. He had no where near the talent Fisher has.
There have been thousands and thousands of Americans distance runners and Fisher holds 3 ARs. He’s also the only American to win Olympic medals in the 5/10 since the ‘60s. He is the most talented American 5/10 runner ever and the closest thing to a East-African runner we’ve got.
Fernandez was mostly a miler and ended up with the a 3:34 pb after he graduated and won the 1500m as freshman. He wasn’t a particular 5k10k specialist. Fisher was nowhere close to Fernandez at the shorter distances before graduation from college despite having better shoes than the ones Fernandez wore years earlier.
finally why can’t you think that Fernandez stopped improving despite joining BTC club as a professional because he rejected Jerry’s doping and preferred to run honest while Fisher almost instantly became a record breaking machine once he joined BTC because he complied?
it’s a different way of looking at things here. I look at it from a totalitarian space-time level.
If Fernandez was a middle distance runner, why would should he be mentioned in a thread about Fisher?
Fernandez was mostly a miler and ended up with the a 3:34 pb after he graduated and won the 1500m as freshman. He wasn’t a particular 5k10k specialist. Fisher was nowhere close to Fernandez at the shorter distances before graduation from college despite having better shoes than the ones Fernandez wore years earlier.
finally why can’t you think that Fernandez stopped improving despite joining BTC club as a professional because he rejected Jerry’s doping and preferred to run honest while Fisher almost instantly became a record breaking machine once he joined BTC because he complied?
it’s a different way of looking at things here. I look at it from a totalitarian space-time level.
If Fernandez was a middle distance runner, why would should he be mentioned in a thread about Fisher?
Because I mentioned him together with a Chris Derrick and because we were all just discussing about talent in general not to mention Mikey himself was flippantly degrading Grant as having less talent than some other athletes which I kinda agree. Wasn’t event specific until you started bringing in event specific times
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
saying Grant has little physical talent but makes up for it in "brains" just doesn't make sense.
Running is the world's simplest sport. Many, many people train approximately like Grant but don't have anywhere near his success.
I am sure that to the coach, what is most *remarkable* about Grant, what makes him stand out the most, is his smarts, because he's much brainier than most runners. But that doesn't mean Grant's smarts are responsible for his success.
saying Grant has little physical talent but makes up for it in "brains" just doesn't make sense.
Running is the world's simplest sport. Many, many people train approximately like Grant but don't have anywhere near his success.
I am sure that to the coach, what is most *remarkable* about Grant, what makes him stand out the most, is his smarts, because he's much brainier than most runners. But that doesn't mean Grant's smarts are responsible for his success.
Ok, Mike has already said that he was simply trying to motivate some kids to train their lungs (more trainable) and not overthink their lack of raw speed (lower limits to trainability). Clearly, there are other markers of "talent" than short-distance times, but he was speaking to American kids who often think that they have to run harder and faster at the expense of true aerobic development. And clearly, Grant is immensely talented in other ways (mechanically, physiologically), but knowing himself and continually learning from his training experiences to stay healthy and improve long term (whereas many others stubbornly follow similar programs for a while without doing so) has served him very well – he is not frantically trying to train harder and harder, he is trying to train smart. Let's not overthink this.
Comment #22. Coach obviously meant "divulge" but inadvertently created a brand new word (dilverge) with potential. Forex: "I am mentally talented but I tend to dilverge." "This race is becoming dilvergent." No meanings yet but it sounds good. This could also be a name: "Dilvergent Running" "Dilvergent Software" "Dilvergent Cafe" ,,,, what an awesome word.
Actually, talent for 5/10K guy is partially defined by 400m speed. Someone with 55 speed is not going to be within a minute of Fisher in the 5000m
Alberto Salazar's 5000m PR is within a minute of Fisher's, and he probably could not run 55.
Sal probably could go 53 ish. he had the american record in 5 K, and ran within a few seconds of the 3k american record with chappa. and went life and death with GOAT Henry Rono in cross country and 10K, where Henry himself, not sure if he could break 51.
finally Moe Farah, could not break 12 seconds in a 100m, in an exhibition failed miserably. but that is not indicitave of anything, that guy could do running start 100ms in 11 flat all day, and 49 for sure. farah could deliver the 50 400m at the end of a slow race, and 52 on demand.
so called slow twitch Rupp, Sal developed that guys sprinting very very well, and you never saw the very best of his speed, in the champs with 10k and 5k, rupp lost his edge after a hard 10k, and could not bring it in the last lap of the 5k. I am not sure Rupps 400 best in high school, maybe a 53, someone can chiime in, I think Rupp ended up around 49mid. and could run 11 100m flat running start all day.
There is literally no idea more played out in distance running than the “not talented” claim. Everyone wants to pretend they got where they got with only hard work. Pre used to say the same thing 50 years ago, and I’ve heard it from basically every talented runner over run into since.
1972 5000m final, that was the first new era type race finish, where people closed the last mile in 4 minutes, where several guys were capable, like Pre.
Pre in that race was silver material, and ran odd surging pace, kind of ballsy panic
viren by the way, was close to a 13 5k flat even in those days, with a 814 two mile in not the best conditions, rain, but had some of the best pacing you'll see, which is not hard as pacers usually bomb early, and the guy going for the record runs too far behind for max draft, and there, where in this race you have a bunch of fellas going to 800m out. .
google Lasse Viren, 2 mailin ME 8.14.0 Tukholma 14.8.1972
and see what a 51 400m guy does to the 49 400m guys
finish on Viren blood doping, in like 1970, that was the EPO of the day, with only a couple of guys doing it.
Viren was probably on a par with the best over 10k for real, and podium 5k,
and GOAT with the blood doping.
which is the point,
what is your 400m best say, after you run 2 minute half?
the above post, well that is pretty informed bro-science, not to self denigrate.
like pre had workouts with dixon and walker a couple of repeat miles in 358 with hangover, or some such, and pre was quoted about finishing the OG 5000m in 4 minute mile, and viren i think was aiming at the same thing.
with viren, he was quoted saying he was much "slower" than dixon and quax, etc. and his 800m times while useless, never indicated any great speed.
at the end of the day, viren could tune up data, or someone in camp.
anyway, looking at the 2 mile tape, and the form of the guy.
no question that this guy is NOT SLOW.
be nice to have someone from back in the day flesh this out.
but the data presented should be pretty tell tale.
Grant has never been a biomechanically efficient runner
look i get why people say this, Grant's form has always looked a little robotic because of the way his arms swing, but to think he isn't biomechanically efficient is just ignorant
the video below should cut straight to the downhill on the 2nd lap where Fisher gaps the lead pack and wraps up the W.
think about it, how does such a biomechanically inefficient runner go downhill faster than all of his best peers in the nation AND do so without ever breaking form whereas nearly every other runner ends up going into a partial gumby-mode with arms flailing all over so they don't lose their balance and fall
also kinda funny/ironic given why this thread was started: Grant clearly hit the highest top speed of any runner on that downhill. he's always had sufficient speed to get the job done.
Grant has never been a biomechanically efficient runner
look i get why people say this, Grant's form has always looked a little robotic because of the way his arms swing, but to think he isn't biomechanically efficient is just ignorant
the video below should cut straight to the downhill on the 2nd lap where Fisher gaps the lead pack and wraps up the W.
think about it, how does such a biomechanically inefficient runner go downhill faster than all of his best peers in the nation AND do so without ever breaking form whereas nearly every other runner ends up going into a partial gumby-mode with arms flailing all over so they don't lose their balance and fall
also kinda funny/ironic given why this thread was started: Grant clearly hit the highest top speed of any runner on that downhill. he's always had sufficient speed to get the job done.
Yes, Grant has always been a great runner, strong and fast. And his form has remained pretty consistent in all levels so it obviously works for him! It reminds me of when Clyde Hart talked about coaching Michael Johnson and he said "he had everything, that's why he's the world record holder" (when MJ still held the 400 record holder). Grant has everything. He's fast, he's strong, he's smart, he takes his training seriously without getting in his own head. That's why he's got American records and medals to show for it. Now, maybe that's not how you spin it to a group of hopeful high schoolers. It's nice for them to believe they can be that good too, even if they're not Stanford engineers with sub 4 mile speed and two FLCC trophies. Maybe not strictly accurate but, hey, they won't know until they try!