As unbelievable as her improvement is, a lot of these posts really are trying to suit the narrative that she's doped and not taking into account the factors of why she's made such an improvement.
Improved endurance In 2014 she came 2nd in 2.03 at the u23 championships. Her 1500 time was 4.16 that year and the following year she ran just inside 19 mins for 5k running 2.07 indoors that season. It’s obvious she trained more like a sprinter for the 800 in the past while at University in England and had very poor endurance in relation to her speed. The US coaches probably realized this and tried to increase her volume too quickly, which led to injuries. Fast-forward to now and at the end of 2023 she ran 32.22 for 10k on the road and then ran 15.35 for 5k in April of this year. If she’s maintained her speed through S&C, strides, flexibility and good luck then it's not out of the question that her 1500m time would drop significantly thanks to her massively improved endurance and capacity to train harder for longer.
The shoes So many posters commenting on her age, but people forget that in this new super shoe era, it’s possible to train hard way into your 30s because your legs are being protected by the shoe technology. Back in the day when training in spikes like the OG victories it would take weeks for your calves not to be in bits after a session, these days you can stick on a pair of dragonflys any time of the year and feel no soreness in your calves the next day. The shoes have clearly increased the ability to train at a high level at and older age.
It’s not inconceivable to suggest that all of these things have aligned perfectly, and she’s just been incredibly fortunate this year.
Smart, well-thought-out answer.
More believable than the rest of this thread's drivel.
Looks like Laura Muir should have retired for 5 years. Maybe if she made the same leaps and bounds improvements that Georgi Bell made while retired, she could run sub 3:45.
As unbelievable as her improvement is, a lot of these posts really are trying to suit the narrative that she's doped and not taking into account the factors of why she's made such an improvement.
Improved endurance In 2014 she came 2nd in 2.03 at the u23 championships. Her 1500 time was 4.16 that year and the following year she ran just inside 19 mins for 5k running 2.07 indoors that season. It’s obvious she trained more like a sprinter for the 800 in the past while at University in England and had very poor endurance in relation to her speed. The US coaches probably realized this and tried to increase her volume too quickly, which led to injuries. Fast-forward to now and at the end of 2023 she ran 32.22 for 10k on the road and then ran 15.35 for 5k in April of this year. If she’s maintained her speed through S&C, strides, flexibility and good luck then it's not out of the question that her 1500m time would drop significantly thanks to her massively improved endurance and capacity to train harder for longer.
The shoes So many posters commenting on her age, but people forget that in this new super shoe era, it’s possible to train hard way into your 30s because your legs are being protected by the shoe technology. Back in the day when training in spikes like the OG victories it would take weeks for your calves not to be in bits after a session, these days you can stick on a pair of dragonflys any time of the year and feel no soreness in your calves the next day. The shoes have clearly increased the ability to train at a high level at and older age.
It’s not inconceivable to suggest that all of these things have aligned perfectly, and she’s just been incredibly fortunate this year.
3) She had a much lower training age than literally any other world class athlete her age
4) There's little to no precedent for low mileage 30 year old athletes in terms of injuries, burn out, cumulative effect of small niggles / deterioration in joints, structural related issues etc.
I'm.not saying whether she is doping or not but here are a few things about UK athletics that raise a few eyebrows.
1. They employed Salazar as an endurance 'guru' on the payroll for a number of years.
2. Barry Fudge, the head of Endurance was often seen in the company of Salazar and Jama Aden. On training camps overseas and other situations.3. Fudge oversaw the 'infusions' of elcartinine that Farah received just before the London Marathon.
3. Farah was coached by Salazar and despite numerous red flags they supported the relationship, employed him, knew he was training with Jama Aden's group, protected him.
4. UKA has a huge number of athletes on Asthma and Thyroid meds via TUE's. Athletes were actively encouraged to seek out 'therapy' for these conditions.
5. There was a lot of talk a few years ago about UKA forcing medications on athletes, one athlete came forward and said the people in authority had ruined her health. Search for Emma Jackson, thyroid, ukathletics.
What this suggests is that all governing bodies are in an 'arms race' of treatments, much of it grey zone.
I'm going with talent.....freakish , once in a million talent . Partly because the UK athletic community is so small , that any rumour of doping would have been out there by now . Our tabloid press are ruthless and have more spies than the CIA ! There is also the credibility of her coaching team in Painter/Meadows . Jenny Meadows being involved in doping an athlete would be more surprising than NASA announcing the moons made of cheese .
On these points:
the smallness of the UK Aths community (I agree with you on this) is also true of every nation in europe, Oceania, Canada and so I don't fully buy your case. It could apply to pretty much the entire world of athletics in democracies where T+F is a minority sport.
Tabloid press have all been shedding vast numbers of 'investigative' journalists on grounds of cost and anyway the libel laws would surely make it extremely hard and risky for them to present anything about an athlete doping if an athlete (in any sport) hadn't had an adverse finding prior - it would surely be libel otherwise.
An athlete can surely dope without their coach being involved or indeed aware. History suggests most doping occurs with coach's involvement but quite often it doesn't.
People assume that doping is a long term 'programme' but it needn't be - it can just as usefully be a short term (less than a month) series of microdoses that might bring an athlete around 2-3% of additional progress on top of whatever progress they may otherwise be making. That last point makes Bell's case - stats wise - so different from Hull's; GB was clearly making vast progress at 1500 while JH had it seemed established herself mid-long term at 3.56/57.
Another poster lists some UKA 'issues' on doping nearly all of which come back to Farah/Salazar/Fudge. whilst I think it's an ugly scenario overall I believe UKA took every step to ensure that their golden goose would never fall foul of a doping violation. Though The unmeasured L Carnitine jab by the UKA medic was an extraordinary oversight. There are numerous things I don't admire about UKA but I believe that they do all they reasonably can to ensure that athletes in their 'charge' do not take any PEDs . As UKA is answerable to UK Sport and from there to government, they have to cover their backs on the rules even if they push to the borders,
So nobody ever has a huge improvement in performance without being doping related. Where can we read your thesis on running Dr Armstronglivs PhD?
You are dealing with probabilities. Most runners at a top international level will not make the gains she has in a year. They are training and competing to their maximum to achieve what they have. That an athlete makes gains far in excess of what the best generally achieve points to something else in addition to talent and training. In a year she has gone from being mediocre to one of the best in the world, at over 30. Given that doping is throughout elite sport today the conclusion is obvious.
As unbelievable as her improvement is, a lot of these posts really are trying to suit the narrative that she's doped and not taking into account the factors of why she's made such an improvement.
Improved endurance In 2014 she came 2nd in 2.03 at the u23 championships. Her 1500 time was 4.16 that year and the following year she ran just inside 19 mins for 5k running 2.07 indoors that season. It’s obvious she trained more like a sprinter for the 800 in the past while at University in England and had very poor endurance in relation to her speed. The US coaches probably realized this and tried to increase her volume too quickly, which led to injuries. Fast-forward to now and at the end of 2023 she ran 32.22 for 10k on the road and then ran 15.35 for 5k in April of this year. If she’s maintained her speed through S&C, strides, flexibility and good luck then it's not out of the question that her 1500m time would drop significantly thanks to her massively improved endurance and capacity to train harder for longer.
The shoes So many posters commenting on her age, but people forget that in this new super shoe era, it’s possible to train hard way into your 30s because your legs are being protected by the shoe technology. Back in the day when training in spikes like the OG victories it would take weeks for your calves not to be in bits after a session, these days you can stick on a pair of dragonflys any time of the year and feel no soreness in your calves the next day. The shoes have clearly increased the ability to train at a high level at and older age.
It’s not inconceivable to suggest that all of these things have aligned perfectly, and she’s just been incredibly fortunate this year.
I'm going with talent.....freakish , once in a million talent . Partly because the UK athletic community is so small , that any rumour of doping would have been out there by now . Our tabloid press are ruthless and have more spies than the CIA ! There is also the credibility of her coaching team in Painter/Meadows . Jenny Meadows being involved in doping an athlete would be more surprising than NASA announcing the moons made of cheese .
She doesn't have that talent. Watch the way she runs. That isn't a gifted athlete.
I'm going with talent.....freakish , once in a million talent . Partly because the UK athletic community is so small , that any rumour of doping would have been out there by now . Our tabloid press are ruthless and have more spies than the CIA ! There is also the credibility of her coaching team in Painter/Meadows . Jenny Meadows being involved in doping an athlete would be more surprising than NASA announcing the moon's made of cheese .
Smart, witty, well-thought-out answer.
Unfortunate that it took almost 50 posts in to find logic and reason.
Discussions about successful runners always attract the goons.
However, they have only the PED arrow in their quiver.
And no capacity to offer an intelligent contribution.
So, good ones, mdrunnerleeds2 and Arkle.
I'm guessing you both are British given your articulate responses. Every Englishman/woman I've met understands proper King's English and knows how to use it. You read like Shakespeare compared to the goons.
They probably do but maybe not to the extent of which we have seen with Bell, because her story and circumstances are unique to her.
There seems to be many reasons why her improvement is so drastic and just labelling it as 'doped' is lazy. Even if she were doping she would need to have an incredible amount of talent and drive to get where shes got.
I am not saying she isn't on drugs, I have no idea, I can just see how she has progressed and the 4.16 is a massive red herring and doesn't represent her true talent and potential.
The most interesting and revealing aspect of what athletes like Bell are achieving is what it suggests doping is able to do to improve performance. Women athletes are apparently very big responders. Without doping their records would be nowhere near they are today. The same will apply to the men but not quite to the same extent. But it suggests that times wouldn't be anywhere near where they are today without it.
They probably do but maybe not to the extent of which we have seen with Bell, because her story and circumstances are unique to her.
There seems to be many reasons why her improvement is so drastic and just labelling it as 'doped' is lazy. Even if she were doping she would need to have an incredible amount of talent and drive to get where shes got.
I am not saying she isn't on drugs, I have no idea, I can just see how she has progressed and the 4.16 is a massive red herring and doesn't represent her true talent and potential.
To go from where she was a year ago to 3:52 and amongst the best on the planet at age 31 is a fairy story. It suggests if she trained more effectively at a younger age she would have run in the high 3:40's. That is a once in a century prodigy. She isn't. Even the way she runs shows that. Another journeyman who has suddenly acquired freakish endurance. There is only one way to do that.
They probably do but maybe not to the extent of which we have seen with Bell, because her story and circumstances are unique to her.
There seems to be many reasons why her improvement is so drastic and just labelling it as 'doped' is lazy. Even if she were doping she would need to have an incredible amount of talent and drive to get where shes got.
I am not saying she isn't on drugs, I have no idea, I can just see how she has progressed and the 4.16 is a massive red herring and doesn't represent her true talent and potential.
To go from where she was a year ago to 3:52 and amongst the best on the planet at age 31 is a fairy story. It suggests if she trained more effectively at a younger age she would have run in the high 3:40's. That is a once in a century prodigy. She isn't. Even the way she runs shows that. Another journeyman who has suddenly acquired freakish endurance. There is only one way to do that.
Pure speculation. Sad that you smear Olympians name with zero proof. The only "proof" you have is that she had a huge improvement/drop in time. Ridiculous.
They probably do but maybe not to the extent of which we have seen with Bell, because her story and circumstances are unique to her.
There seems to be many reasons why her improvement is so drastic and just labelling it as 'doped' is lazy. Even if she were doping she would need to have an incredible amount of talent and drive to get where shes got.
I am not saying she isn't on drugs, I have no idea, I can just see how she has progressed and the 4.16 is a massive red herring and doesn't represent her true talent and potential.
To go from where she was a year ago to 3:52 and amongst the best on the planet at age 31 is a fairy story. It suggests if she trained more effectively at a younger age she would have run in the high 3:40's. That is a once in a century prodigy. She isn't. Even the way she runs shows that. Another journeyman who has suddenly acquired freakish endurance. There is only one way to do that.
Based on what? Where are you getting those numbers from?
There's no precedent here. The athlete left the sport until 27ish, and you're comparing them to athletes who didn't leave the sport.
Above you write:
"Most runners at a top international level will not make the gains she has in a year. They are training and competing to their maximum to achieve what they have. That an athlete makes gains far in excess of what the best generally achieve points to something else in addition to talent and training. In a year she has gone from being mediocre to one of the best in the world, at over 30."
Most (all) other runners have a far higher training age - they're far closer to their genetic limit acquired through training. If you start later, your upside will be capped at a certain age, sure, but we don't really know what that age is.
She seemed to start training intensely again during lockdown (so mid to late 20s), having - importantly - kept her GPP up (through duathlons and hitting the gym).
Ostensibly, the only reason she got back into the sport was covid lockdowns giving her literally zero distractions. In any other time a 27 year old who fell out of the sport wouldn't be able to have a free run at basically training like a professional athlete as their one and only focus.
So you think a 30-year-old woman who is a prior to getting selected for the Olympics was doing very well in a lucrative cybersecurity sales position decided to risk it all including her health to inject herself with epo?
She has shared publicly the backing her employer has given her to put her career on hold to train. It would be absolutely mad to risk her future career and reputation, it would also compromise her training group (which includes Hogkinson) - so you must think they are in on it too?
It just doesn't make sense.
The only other option is that there's state sponsored doping going on or some drug that hasn't been banned yet but even then there would be some hint of that in the british press.
Her progression is a red flag, no doubt about it. As a Brit, I was happy for the medal and performance in isolation, but there's no getting away from how unusual her story is. My default is to give every athlete the benefit of the doubt until something happens to take it away (I always said the same about Katir), but we've never seen anything like this before in the 1500. We have seen it in the marathon, with Kiptum and Assefa coming from nowhere to drop WR times, and Sedjati seemingly just emerged from the blue without a single performance to his name before he dropped world class times. So, I'm not going to go all in and say Bell is doping, and she definitely has talent as her age group record shows, but if anything does ever turn up, it won't be a massive shock
So you think a 30-year-old woman who is a prior to getting selected for the Olympics was doing very well in a lucrative cybersecurity sales position decided to risk it all including her health to inject herself with epo?
She has shared publicly the backing her employer has given her to put her career on hold to train. It would be absolutely mad to risk her future career and reputation, it would also compromise her training group (which includes Hogkinson) - so you must think they are in on it too?
It just doesn't make sense.
The only other option is that there's state sponsored doping going on or some drug that hasn't been banned yet but even then there would be some hint of that in the british press.
Notably, there's another example: British Sprinter (and accountant) Eugene Amo-Dadzie.
In his case he hadn't done ANY specialised training until his mid 20s. He ran 9.93 last year at 31, having incrementally chipped away at it (with the same improvement curve you'd expect to see in a notably younger athletes).
Given he has a young family, & a promising career in the profession (which he hasn't left), he'd be risking even more for far less upside.
I wonder how Muir feels. She has been at the top of 1500m for almost a decade and to watch a compatriot break her British Record after a year of running.
Muir is the only athlete in that final that I think could have been clean. If she was doping I can well believe she would beat Bell and Hull and even Kipyegon.
Of course officials are complicit, this has been going on for decades! I know because I used to compete at international level and heard people talking about it. At one event abroad somewhere in the 1980s we were told at a pre-event team meeting that there would be no drug testing and there was a very audible sigh of relief from some of the athletes.
To go from where she was a year ago to 3:52 and amongst the best on the planet at age 31 is a fairy story. It suggests if she trained more effectively at a younger age she would have run in the high 3:40's. That is a once in a century prodigy. She isn't. Even the way she runs shows that. Another journeyman who has suddenly acquired freakish endurance. There is only one way to do that.
Pure speculation. Sad that you smear Olympians name with zero proof. The only "proof" you have is that she had a huge improvement/drop in time. Ridiculous.
Yes, the "huge improvement" is ridiculous. From 4:12 a year ago she was only a little over a second behind Kipyegon. At age 31. Perfectly normal.