I went back and looked at college photos. Her hips were wider. Her waist was narrower. She had a bit of curves. How did her bone structure change since then? It makes no sense.
Drugs that suppress female hormones. Maybe drugs that also accentuate male characteristics (although these would be banned for being performance enhancing).
I know that this thread isn’t about male athletes with DSDs - or trans gender identities - competing in the women’s category. But the poster I was replying to, Armstronglivs, keeps saying that the T limits set for male DSD athletes competing in women’s events, which he’s taken from the rules set specifically for male DSD athletes, apply equally to female athletes in women’s competition. When that’s not the case.
What’s more, he keeps saying that the current limit for male DSD athletes in women’s competition is 5 nmol/L. Which is what you said in your last post too.
In fact, WA’s current teststerone limit for male DSD athletes competing in the women’s category is below 2.5 nmol/L.
So to set the record straight, I had to show what WA’s current rules for male DSD athletes in women’s competition actually say.
As to the information I cited about the below 2.5 nmol/L limit applying to male athletes with trans gender identities competing in the female category as well as to male DSD athletes in the women's category, my source is the latest version of WA’s regulations, namely the document titled
World Athletics Eligibility Regulations for Transgender Athletes (Version 2.0, approved by Council on 23 March 2023, and coming into effect on 31 March 2023)
In section 3.2 on page 7, those regulations say that males with a trans gender identity can compete in the female category only if they meet the following conditions:
1) They must not have experienced any part of male puberty either beyond Tanner Stage 2 or after age 12 (whichever comes first).
2) Since puberty they must have continuously maintained the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L.
3) They must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e., whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the female classification at World Rankings Competitions and/or have recognised any World Record performance in the female classification at a competition that is not a World Rankings Competition.
I don't "keep saying" what you claim. You show you don't bother to follow what others post on a thread.
Huh? I used the phrase “keep saying” in reference to the three separate times on this thread you made the same erroneous claim that there’s currently a 5 nmol/L limit on the amount of natural testosterone that Hiltz and other athletes competing in the women’s category are allowed to have. See for yourself:
In post #9 at 07/01/2024 1:08am EDT you said: Under the rules she [Hiltz] cannot have a T level that exceeds 5nmol.
In post #29 07/01/2024 9:08am EDT you said: The higher t-level limit of 5nmol was simply set for women who have naturally elevated levels
In post 30 at 07/01/2024 9:23am EDT you said: The rules I refer to apply to athletes with XY disorders of sexual development competing in the female category. The 5nmol level set for them is above the level that female athletes would naturally attain so there isn't a limit set for cis-females.
I’m glad that in a more recent post you graciously took on board the info I shared countering what you claimed earilier about both the level of natural T allowed, and which athletes in the women’s category the limit on natural T applies to. But I really don’t see the point in pretending you didn’t say what you kept saying earlier on.
At any rate, sorry for causing offense. It wasn't what I was aiming to do.
"sometimes I see trans people on their transition journey, like getting gender-affirming care or starting hormone therapy and things like that, and I feel like my sport is at odds with my identity, because I would love to do those things. But I’m not gonna take testosterone, start hormone therapy until I’ve closed this chapter of my elite running career. I do think that I want top surgery, but that’s probably five to ten weeks of no running. I kind of have to be like, ‘Okay, is that worth it to lose x amount of months of training to be affirmed in my gender more?"
I don't "keep saying" what you claim. You show you don't bother to follow what others post on a thread.
Huh? I used the phrase “keep saying” in reference to the three separate times on this thread you made the same erroneous claim that there’s currently a 5 nmol/L limit on the amount of natural testosterone that Hiltz and other athletes competing in the women’s category are allowed to have. See for yourself:
In post #9 at 07/01/2024 1:08am EDT you said: Under the rules she [Hiltz] cannot have a T level that exceeds 5nmol.
In post #29 07/01/2024 9:08am EDT you said: The higher t-level limit of 5nmol was simply set for women who have naturally elevated levels
In post 30 at 07/01/2024 9:23am EDT you said: The rules I refer to apply to athletes with XY disorders of sexual development competing in the female category. The 5nmol level set for them is above the level that female athletes would naturally attain so there isn't a limit set for cis-females.
I’m glad that in a more recent post you graciously took on board the info I shared countering what you claimed earilier about both the level of natural T allowed, and which athletes in the women’s category the limit on natural T applies to. But I really don’t see the point in pretending you didn’t say what you kept saying earlier on.
At any rate, sorry for causing offense. It wasn't what I was aiming to do.
My main point was that the level of testosterone in biological females is below the limit imposed on DSD athletes competing as women. It would still appear to be the case with the reduced limit. As far as I can tell T-levels in women's sport have only been an issue with DSD competitors.
That is separate from the fact that the use of exogenous testosterone is banned for both men and women. I am not familiar with the extent it would affect the t-levels in women and how apparent this might be on their bio-passport. Quite a few of the banned female Russian athletes used it as part of their doping "cocktail".
Taking legal supplements (to a legal level) isn't the issue. Taking anything that is construed as a ped is. That's what doping is and what so many athletes now do.
Thats absurd. Isn’t everything a “legal supplement” until you hit the legal level?
if Nikki wants to take testosterone, let them. They shouldn’t be banned from living life the way they want just because she is an athlete.
She is a great example to her community. I think all trans people should follow her example and compete in their biologically correct gender.
Yes. Funny how THEY always end up competing vs girls.
Personally IDGAF about her pronouns, to me she just looks like your run of the mill lesbian. The other stuff is just attention getting silliness of the day.
The answer is simple but never with the contortions that you subject every argument to. Hiltz can take anything that isn't banned outright or banned beyond a defined limit. That won't include testosterone, which is the key hormone that determines male physical differences to female.
Still confused why you are giving me answers to a question I didn't ask. If you have simple answers, why not reply to the OP?
Taking legal supplements (to a legal level) isn't the issue. Taking anything that is construed as a ped is. That's what doping is and what so many athletes now do.
Thats absurd. Isn’t everything a “legal supplement” until you hit the legal level?
if Nikki wants to take testosterone, let them. They shouldn’t be banned from living life the way they want just because she is an athlete.
Some supplements are legal to a given limit, when they are then deemed to be a ped. Other drugs cannot be taken in any quantities. That is those on the banned list. Testosterone is one of them.
The answer is simple but never with the contortions that you subject every argument to. Hiltz can take anything that isn't banned outright or banned beyond a defined limit. That won't include testosterone, which is the key hormone that determines male physical differences to female.
Still confused why you are giving me answers to a question I didn't ask. If you have simple answers, why not reply to the OP?
You are often confused. You presumed to answer the question.
This post was edited 20 seconds after it was posted.
All I know is that I much prefer Nikki thanking her community for their love and support on the last day of Pride month rather than McLaughlin indoctrinating kids to believe in some non existent sky fairy. ( Apparently, since she said, "all things are possible with christ", this christ must prefer her to the other 400m hurdlers.)
She does not have to take testosterone. Hiltz said sometimes hiltz is a man, so logically the testosterone levels will increase. It’s basic biology 101.
Still confused why you are giving me answers to a question I didn't ask. If you have simple answers, why not reply to the OP?
You are often confused. You presumed to answer the question.
You are giving me answers to questions I did not ask.
I did answer the OP's question about "male hormones under a legal limit" but "maybe not testosterone", in a reply to the OP.
You told me there "isn't a legal limit", for banned drugs such as "testosterone". Good point, but irrelevant. Thereafter you talk about "banned beyond a defined limit", and "legal to a given limit", essentially contradicting yourself and parroting my initial answer.
None of your replies in this thread were to the OP.
My main point was that the level of testosterone in biological females is below the limit imposed on DSD athletes competing as women. It would still appear to be the case with the reduced limit. As far as I can tell T-levels in women's sport have only been an issue with DSD competitors.
That is separate from the fact that the use of exogenous testosterone is banned for both men and women. I am not familiar with the extent it would affect the t-levels in women and how apparent this might be on their bio-passport. Quite a few of the banned female Russian athletes used it as part of their doping "cocktail".
Yes, there's only been an issue over the levels of natural T in DSD athletes competing in women's sports. And that's a separate issue to the rules that prohibit athltetes of both sexes from taking exogenous testosterone and other androgens that are on WADA's list of banned substances.
To put a finer point on it, there's only been an issue over the levels of natural T in DSD athletes competing in women's sports who naturally have T in the male range because biologically they are DSD males with functioning testes who due to loopholes in the rules have been allowed to compete in the female category.
But just to be clear: WA and other sports governing bodies do not place any limits on the levels of natural testosterone in athletes competing in women's sports who are female (X-only sex chromsomes, no SRY gene, born with ovaries rather than testes, and with female reproductive organs).
When female athletes have natural testosterone above the top end of the normal female range due to a health condition that causes hyperandrogenism in women - such as polycystic ovary syndrome, classic CAH, late-onset CAH, pregnancy, luteoma of pregnancy or another kind of tumor - they can't be required to reduce their natural T or barred from competing in the women's category for having "too much natural T."
When the CAS ruled in the Semenya case in 2019, the decision made it very clear that the CAS panel decided to okay World Athletics' DSD regulations on the condition that the restrictions on natural T would only apply to athletes in women's competiton who are "46, XY DSD" and who have natural T in the male range because they have testes.
If the regulations had attempted to restrict the level of natural T in female athletes who are 46, XX (or 45,X or 47,XXX) and have female reproductive organs, then CAS would have nixed them. Because any attempt to clamp down on and penalize female athletes for having naturally-occuring hyperandrogenism due to conditions like PCOS, CAH and pregnancy would obviously amount to both unfair sex discrimination and a violation of their human rights.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
I went back and looked at college photos. Her hips were wider. Her waist was narrower. She had a bit of curves. How did her bone structure change since then? It makes no sense.
would be interested to see footage of her stride back then if this is indeed true. have said for sometimes now (generally massively downvoted) that she runs dramatically different than her competitors and the only way to expalin it, though it's not policitally correct, is to say that she runs like a boy
her stride does not look like most women's, she's way more athletic
because of her diminutive size it's not so striking, but it reminds me of how Caster Semenya stands out with such a different stride from her competitors as well
for reference, it has been shown that testosterone has a significant effect on one's motor patterns: feminist be dam.ed, there's a reason girls "throw like girls"
I went back and looked at college photos. Her hips were wider. Her waist was narrower. She had a bit of curves. How did her bone structure change since then? It makes no sense.
would be interested to see footage of her stride back then if this is indeed true. have said for sometimes now (generally massively downvoted) that she runs dramatically different than her competitors and the only way to expalin it, though it's not policitally correct, is to say that she runs like a boy
her stride does not look like most women's, she's way more athletic
because of her diminutive size it's not so striking, but it reminds me of how Caster Semenya stands out with such a different stride from her competitors as well
for reference, it has been shown that testosterone has a significant effect on one's motor patterns: feminist be dam.ed, there's a reason girls "throw like girls"
Pull up the Gold Coast Track Club or Emma Abrahamson videos from 2019, when I think Nikki was at their best and qualified for Worlds and made the final. Everything about Nikki looks way different from now. Physical appearance, physique, stride, everything. Nikki is even an attractive woman then.
Fast forward to 2021 at the US Olympic Trials. Nikki finishes DFL in the final of the 1,500 and fails to make the final of the 800. In 2021 and 2022, Nikki actually raced A LOT, so there is zero indication that Nikki was at all injured. In 2021, there were 11 1,500 races, 4 mile races, and 4 800 races in 2021, with the 1,500 times all ranging from a best of 4:02.94 and zero other 1,500 times below 4:05. The best performances were really in the 800, where there were 3 2:01.xx races. In 2022, there were 8 1,500 races, 7 mile races, 2 800s, and the Falmouth road race. The best performances were a 2:00.xx 800, a 4:04.12 1,500, and a 4:17 road mile, with zero other 1,500s under 4:07. Nikki finishes 10th at USAs and is dropped by Adidas for the poor performances.
That brings us to 2023. Nikki wins the USA indoor championships in the 1,500 in a tactical 4:17, runs a 1:59 800 at Bryan Clay Invite, somehow gets into the Bislett games and runs 4:01.42, wins USA outdoors in 4:03.10, gets into a race Faith Kipyegon runs 3:51 in at Monaco and runs a 3:59.61, and goes to Worlds but crashes out in the semifinal in 4:00.84. The improvement from the 2 previous years is significant.
Now, in 2024, Nikki wins the USA indoor championships again, places 2nd at World indoors in 4:02.32, runs 3:59.64 at Pre, cruises through the USA heats, and runs a 4 second PR in the final with a 3:55.33. The improvement from even last year is amazing.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test. We see a healthy runner who's career had all about flamed out, and then they are suddenly world class at 29 years old? Nope, not being done in a natural way.
"sometimes I see trans people on their transition journey, like getting gender-affirming care or starting hormone therapy and things like that, and I feel like my sport is at odds with my identity, because I would love to do those things. But I’m not gonna take testosterone, start hormone therapy until I’ve closed this chapter of my elite running career. I do think that I want top surgery, but that’s probably five to ten weeks of no running. I kind of have to be like, ‘Okay, is that worth it to lose x amount of months of training to be affirmed in my gender more?"