Are you talking about Jones? If so: she got popped real hard. And Flo-Jo, well, if I could go all in on whether or not she took steroids I would in a heartbeat. And so would everyone but Rekrunner maybe.
I wouldn't like to bet against Flo Jo and/or Kersee on the question of doping, but there are questions about a broken wind-meter reading of 0.0 on a day with high winds.
This doesn't speak for all steroids, but I just found data from a recent observational study correlating high testosterone with performances in the 2011 and 2013 IAAF World Championships. For Marion Jones' and FloJo's events, high testosterone women ran slower than low testosterone women in the 100m (12.06s versus 11.44s), and slightly faster in the 200m (23.17s versus 23.25s).
Connecting this back to Keely Hodgkinson's event, the 800m, the results of the high testosterone women were faster (1:59.4 versus 2:02.0). Comparing Keely Hodgkinson (and Athing Mu) on the alltime lists with 1980s performances, and XY DSD performances, Keely and Athing are right about where we should expect the fastest clean athletes to be.
Take that for what it's worth, and carry on.
The wind reader most certainly helps.
They were not using Testosterone. I have heard that Flo-Jo was using an experimental version of Human Growth Hormone(HGH).
I just think Mu is doping cause of her coach.
I agreed with basically everything you put there this is a first.
She never races but manages to be top in an event that generally requires a good amount of racing.
She does not need to be doping for me to hate her. She never races and does not like the sport so there is no way I would ever cheer for someone who ends up stunting the growth of the sport. I am not saying Keely is clean but she sure as hell is cleaner than this drug bag.
For those who want to understand who coaches Mu:
When did he coach Marion Jones? As far as I remember Jones' coach was TREVOR GRAHAM
That was my bad. He was connected with the BALCO scandal which Jones was as well.
You do understand that this does not apply to all track distances? Sprinting yes due to fast twitch-slow twitch genetic make up. But when we look at middle distance running (and even 400 is more mixed) this does not apply. There’s a real mixture 800m upwards. The UK for example and in particular the Scottish excel at 1500m - are they all doping too?
I had no idea Americans were so obsessed with accusing innocent athletes of doping until I read these boards. Knowing what I do about the level of drug testing in this country then all these claims are ridiculous.
It’s a shame that there isn’t consistency across the world with drug testing. But flinging out random accusations with no evidence, based on the color of someone’s skin is quite sad.
It's just a simple eye test. Nothing scientific.
When I see one group of people winning all of the time, or the majority of the time, at all of the distances on the track (and the roads too for that matter), then it's very easy for me to draw the conclusion that this group of people are faster than the others.
When someone from that other slower group beats those from the faster group, then that's when questions arise for me. How did that happen? How did they do that? That's not the normal course of things, so is this being done naturally?
There is of course the possibility that it is being done naturally, but chances are it isn’t.
Further, if we want to go with the belief that most or all are doping, then the same eye test applies. If most or all are doping, and the same group are still faster than the others, then we're back in the same position.
Exceptions or outliers do of course exist, but track & field being what it is in regard to doping, exceptions or outliers are highly suspect and suspicious to me.
I'm one of those people that believed that Lance Armstrong was real. When it turned out that wasn't the case, I rarely believe anything now. That said, some people I do still believe are real, most I don't though.
So it's purely subjective, nothing scientific.
There are 1.6 billion white people and none of them can ever be world beaters because blacks on average are better? I agree that black people are simply better at running but to assume no white people can be top of the world for a couple years is just ignoring statistical evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying Keely is 100% clean. However assuming she is not clean because she is white does not make sense. Tiger Woods is the GOAT of a white dominated golf and Serena Williams is the GOAT of tennis.
On Jan 1, 1990, the fastest 29 (!) 800 m ladies were from the Soviet Bloc, with times between 1:53.28 and 1:56.78 (no. 30 was our own roid user Decker with 1:56.90, no. 31 Gallagher with 1:56.91). So no clean runner was within 3.5 seconds of the top doped runner.
Today we obviously have better doping controls, so let's look at the last dozen years (ABP in effect, AIU mostly). Top 5 are 2x intersex + Keely + Athing + Ajee. No dirty runner in the top 5 in 12 years?
Or this millennium. Three 1:54 runners: 1 rumored intersex, 1 intersex, + Athing. If clean runners can run 1:54, why did no dirty runner run 1:53 in this millennium?
There are 1.6 billion white people and none of them can ever be world beaters because blacks on average are better? I agree that black people are simply better at running but to assume no white people can be top of the world for a couple years is just ignoring statistical evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying Keely is 100% clean. However assuming she is not clean because she is white does not make sense. Tiger Woods is the GOAT of a white dominated golf and Serena Williams is the GOAT of tennis.
I've addressed this when I said exceptions or outliers do of course exist, but track & field being what it is in regard to doping, exceptions or outliers are highly suspect and suspicious to me.
This of course is speaking in the broadest sense.
Also, you agree with me in regard to Keely. She may be clean, but I kind of doubt it.
Athing Mu may be dirty, but the only reason I doubt that is again, when did she start if she is dirty?
I don't think anyone thinks she would have started at the freaking Trenton Track Club. So the only possible place is the one season at Texas A&M. Why would she start doping at Texas A&M though? For what reason? Were there people there beating her and so she thought that she had to dope to beat them?
So that's why she's one of those few that I have a hard time believing that she's doping.
Others on that "clean list"… McLaughlin maybe. Although, I really don't know what to make of her. On the one hand, she made an Olympic team at 16, so why would she need to dope? On the other hand, she does some incredible things, so she's a tough call to me.
Sha'Carri Richardson. I don't know if she's disciplined enough to dope. Because if you’re not disciplined I don't know if you can away with doping. Because it seems like you're going to slip up and get caught. And if you're silly enough to get caught smoking weed, then you're surely going to get popped for doping.
So she could be and probably is, but she's kind of a hard call to me too. Of course, if she gets close to Flo-Jo's record, then hell yeah.
Noah Lyles. He probably is because he's a sprinter. But it's not like he puts up insane times, so I guess doping only helps so much?
Distance people on the American side… they're all slow as hell anyway so who cares. Doping or not, they're still slower than the Africans. And you kind hope that they're not doping, because if they are and they're still that slow… f*ck. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement to dope.
Again, Athing Mu could be doping, but she doesn't strike me as one of those winning at any and all cost kind of people. She comes across as too goofy for that. And I don't think she absolutely loves running track, she's just happens to be really good at it.
So I don't think she would care enough to dope, because track & field doesn't seem like the be all and end all for her. Again, it's just something that she’s good at. And of course I could be totally wrong on her.
I could be totally wrong on this too because I don't know the mind of a doper, but I assume to dopers track & field is the be all and end all for them. That's why they dope. And they of course dope to be faster than the next person. Because it's everything to them. I don't think track & field is everything to Athing Mu. It's just a thing to her. (No pun.)
Anyway, yes, again, it's possible for white athletes to beat black athletes on the track and on the roads. It's entirely possible and it happens from time to time.
When it happens though, for me personally, it always raises suspicion. And that's because it's not how things normally pan out. And track being track, when things happen outside of the established norm, there's usually quote unquote "explanations" behind it.
I'm a Brit so probably biased but I hope Keely is clean.
The idea that you need to be African to be competitive only seems to be the case in short distance and very long distance (HM/Mara). Middle distance fields seem to be evenly split or 1/3 African ethnicity and 2/3 other.
Brits also seem to be quite good in the middle distance ranks with the men's side on 1500m stopping Jakob's doubles and the women's side with the Scots.
There's also less incentive to dope with less financial incentive and PEDs just being harder to find. Her 2020 Tokyo run was supposedly funded by a local businessman. She's probably not badly off from the running but it's not jump to 1-5% richest people levels of money. Running is a niche sport and nowhere near the money of cycling.
That said, well, there's always the suspicion of anyone who's competitive but little has been proven against UK athletes.
There are 1.6 billion white people and none of them can ever be world beaters because blacks on average are better? I agree that black people are simply better at running but to assume no white people can be top of the world for a couple years is just ignoring statistical evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying Keely is 100% clean. However assuming she is not clean because she is white does not make sense. Tiger Woods is the GOAT of a white dominated golf and Serena Williams is the GOAT of tennis.
I've addressed this when I said exceptions or outliers do of course exist, but track & field being what it is in regard to doping, exceptions or outliers are highly suspect and suspicious to me.
This of course is speaking in the broadest sense.
Also, you agree with me in regard to Keely. She may be clean, but I kind of doubt it.
Athing Mu may be dirty, but the only reason I doubt that is again, when did she start if she is dirty?
I don't think anyone thinks she would have started at the freaking Trenton Track Club. So the only possible place is the one season at Texas A&M. Why would she start doping at Texas A&M though? For what reason? Were there people there beating her and so she thought that she had to dope to beat them?
So that's why she's one of those few that I have a hard time believing that she's doping.
Others on that "clean list"… McLaughlin maybe. Although, I really don't know what to make of her. On the one hand, she made an Olympic team at 16, so why would she need to dope? On the other hand, she does some incredible things, so she's a tough call to me.
Sha'Carri Richardson. I don't know if she's disciplined enough to dope. Because if you’re not disciplined I don't know if you can away with doping. Because it seems like you're going to slip up and get caught. And if you're silly enough to get caught smoking weed, then you're surely going to get popped for doping.
So she could be and probably is, but she's kind of a hard call to me too. Of course, if she gets close to Flo-Jo's record, then hell yeah.
Noah Lyles. He probably is because he's a sprinter. But it's not like he puts up insane times, so I guess doping only helps so much?
Distance people on the American side… they're all slow as hell anyway so who cares. Doping or not, they're still slower than the Africans. And you kind hope that they're not doping, because if they are and they're still that slow… f*ck. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement to dope.
Again, Athing Mu could be doping, but she doesn't strike me as one of those winning at any and all cost kind of people. She comes across as too goofy for that. And I don't think she absolutely loves running track, she's just happens to be really good at it.
So I don't think she would care enough to dope, because track & field doesn't seem like the be all and end all for her. Again, it's just something that she’s good at. And of course I could be totally wrong on her.
I could be totally wrong on this too because I don't know the mind of a doper, but I assume to dopers track & field is the be all and end all for them. That's why they dope. And they of course dope to be faster than the next person. Because it's everything to them. I don't think track & field is everything to Athing Mu. It's just a thing to her. (No pun.)
Anyway, yes, again, it's possible for white athletes to beat black athletes on the track and on the roads. It's entirely possible and it happens from time to time.
When it happens though, for me personally, it always raises suspicion. And that's because it's not how things normally pan out. And track being track, when things happen outside of the established norm, there's usually quote unquote "explanations" behind it.
I’m really struggling with your argument that all black people should beat white people at all track events and if a white person wins that raises suspicion. That is what you are saying?
Have you seen the make up of 1500m races? Have you looked through history? Even 800m are a real mix.
It’s really a simplistic argument and just doesn’t ring true.
No women under 2:00 are clean. Shes as clean as the Ganges.
Wiley has run 1:57 and she’s an example of pure talent and hard work. She’s not involved with a sketchy supplement company. Anyway, isn’t your comment basically like saying “no man runs under 1;47 clean”?
No way. Teenage girls cannot run in the 1.55 range, no matter how talented they appear to be. Only DSD teenagers,or dopers can run that fast. Also only the best drugged up adult women have ever run that fast. I'm not buying it that athing or keely could be as fast as caster semenya .
About this
I wouldn't like to bet against Flo Jo and/or Kersee on the question of doping, but there are questions about a broken wind-meter reading of 0.0 on a day with high winds.
I can bring you an old thread about flo-jo where Rekrunner confirm that "none doubt that Flo-Jo was a doper".
The other day, when Coevett complained that he was behind his ban, he raised an answer playing the saint Jesus Christ: "It wasn't me".
I don't like people with multiple faces that constantly play the Hide and Seek game.
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Like everyone here, I don't know if FloJo was clean or dirty. If you think you found something, don't take my word for it. I was just saying here that "I wouldn't like to bet" "all in" either way.
Like anyone else, I think there are reasons to think FloJo doped, even when lacking direct evidence of her doping in an era when catching dopers was hit and miss. I think there is also a reason to think Flo-Jo may have had an excessive tailwind. These are not mutually exclusive.
Regarding Coevett being banned, like with Flo-Jo, I have no inside information. He just wants to blame me for his self-inflicted own goals.
There are 1.6 billion white people and none of them can ever be world beaters because blacks on average are better? I agree that black people are simply better at running but to assume no white people can be top of the world for a couple years is just ignoring statistical evidence to the contrary.
I am not saying Keely is 100% clean. However assuming she is not clean because she is white does not make sense. Tiger Woods is the GOAT of a white dominated golf and Serena Williams is the GOAT of tennis.
I've addressed this when I said exceptions or outliers do of course exist, but track & field being what it is in regard to doping, exceptions or outliers are highly suspect and suspicious to me.
This of course is speaking in the broadest sense.
Also, you agree with me in regard to Keely. She may be clean, but I kind of doubt it.
Athing Mu may be dirty, but the only reason I doubt that is again, when did she start if she is dirty?
I don't think anyone thinks she would have started at the freaking Trenton Track Club. So the only possible place is the one season at Texas A&M. Why would she start doping at Texas A&M though? For what reason? Were there people there beating her and so she thought that she had to dope to beat them?
So that's why she's one of those few that I have a hard time believing that she's doping.
Others on that "clean list"… McLaughlin maybe. Although, I really don't know what to make of her. On the one hand, she made an Olympic team at 16, so why would she need to dope? On the other hand, she does some incredible things, so she's a tough call to me.
Sha'Carri Richardson. I don't know if she's disciplined enough to dope. Because if you’re not disciplined I don't know if you can away with doping. Because it seems like you're going to slip up and get caught. And if you're silly enough to get caught smoking weed, then you're surely going to get popped for doping.
So she could be and probably is, but she's kind of a hard call to me too. Of course, if she gets close to Flo-Jo's record, then hell yeah.
Noah Lyles. He probably is because he's a sprinter. But it's not like he puts up insane times, so I guess doping only helps so much?
Distance people on the American side… they're all slow as hell anyway so who cares. Doping or not, they're still slower than the Africans. And you kind hope that they're not doping, because if they are and they're still that slow… f*ck. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement to dope.
Again, Athing Mu could be doping, but she doesn't strike me as one of those winning at any and all cost kind of people. She comes across as too goofy for that. And I don't think she absolutely loves running track, she's just happens to be really good at it.
So I don't think she would care enough to dope, because track & field doesn't seem like the be all and end all for her. Again, it's just something that she’s good at. And of course I could be totally wrong on her.
I could be totally wrong on this too because I don't know the mind of a doper, but I assume to dopers track & field is the be all and end all for them. That's why they dope. And they of course dope to be faster than the next person. Because it's everything to them. I don't think track & field is everything to Athing Mu. It's just a thing to her. (No pun.)
Anyway, yes, again, it's possible for white athletes to beat black athletes on the track and on the roads. It's entirely possible and it happens from time to time.
When it happens though, for me personally, it always raises suspicion. And that's because it's not how things normally pan out. And track being track, when things happen outside of the established norm, there's usually quote unquote "explanations" behind it.
Oh ok you are a troll. Im so fvcking stupid I did not realize.
GB women started using after Zola arrived... Like in South Africa anything Elana did starting in '91 was revved up after Zola returned. Just like one could easily tell that Regina really "got going" after '93 and all of her '94 and after was aided.
I’m really struggling with your argument that all black people should beat white people at all track events and if a white person wins that raises suspicion. That is what you are saying?
Have you seen the make up of 1500m races? Have you looked through history? Even 800m are a real mix.
It’s really a simplistic argument and just doesn’t ring true.
No, I’m not saying what should happen, I’m saying what usually does happen. Why would you think I would say that something should or shouldn’t happen in an instance like this? That’s moronic.
Also, yes, 1500m, 800m, you can get a mix in that. Pretty much everything else Black athletes win. Be it from America or Africa. And if a white athlete wins anything other than a 1500 or 800, that’s unusual, and therefore suspicious to me. Because anything in track & field that’s unusual is suspicious given the doping that’s rampant in the sport. This is easily understood, yes?