LRC note. We changed the title of the thread to make it more clear what exactly happened. The thread was initially entiteld, "Transgender sprinter wins Oregon girls' state championship 200". Moving forward, you must be a registered user to post.
We agree that WA wouldn’t worry about a time that is faster than a women’s World Record. They would ignore it.
We disagree (and I’m correct) that it would be recognized as a state record. A time that wins a girls’ state championship and is the fastest ever in that state absolutely would be recognized by that state’s athletic association as the state record. And it doesn’t matter how the fans feel or what they reject. It would be the record under current rules, even if is unassailable forever.
Why does seeing a named typed somewhere bother you? Both of us would know it’s bogus. And so would anyone that is enough of a fan to search for state track records.
It should bother you exponentially more that Wang Junxia is recognized as the WR holder in the 3000m.
I'll decide what bothers me, thank you very much. That might include Ma's Army, or the bogus 400 record, or anything "Flo Jo." Those are for another day.
Reducing a state record to "a name typed somewhere" is the giveaway that you don't want to discuss what it really could be; a record that might never be broken by the people who rightfully should be able to pursue it, who should aspire to that level of greatness, who should find it motivating and inspirational.
Why does seeing a named typed somewhere bother you? Both of us would know it’s bogus. And so would anyone that is enough of a fan to search for state track records.
It should bother you exponentially more that Wang Junxia is recognized as the WR holder in the 3000m.
I'll decide what bothers me, thank you very much. That might include Ma's Army, or the bogus 400 record, or anything "Flo Jo." Those are for another day.
Reducing a state record to "a name typed somewhere" is the giveaway that you don't want to discuss what it really could be; a record that might never be broken by the people who rightfully should be able to pursue it, who should aspire to that level of greatness, who should find it motivating and inspirational.
A state record is not "a name typed somewhere."
Without hormone treatments, any record would be that of a mediocre male athlete. It’s not a record that needs to be broken of even acknowledged. It would be faux record and I’ve already discussed it.
I'll decide what bothers me, thank you very much. That might include Ma's Army, or the bogus 400 record, or anything "Flo Jo." Those are for another day.
Reducing a state record to "a name typed somewhere" is the giveaway that you don't want to discuss what it really could be; a record that might never be broken by the people who rightfully should be able to pursue it, who should aspire to that level of greatness, who should find it motivating and inspirational.
A state record is not "a name typed somewhere."
Without hormone treatments, any record would be that of a mediocre male athlete. It’s not a record that needs to be broken of even acknowledged. It would be faux record and I’ve already discussed it.
A policy that results in "go ahead and ignore the record, because it's 'faux' and the real record is the next time on the list, so shoot for that one because it is the 'real' one," just might be a REALLY, REALLY bad policy.
So, I think most people on here know me as someone who is on the left side. When I'm not banned by the Brojos for pointing out how racist and poorly moderated this site is, of course!
Here's the thing: I think this article is pretty spot on. (And I suspect most on the left do too!)
The biggest issue I have -- and I'll stop speaking for everyone on the left at this point -- is the amount of abuse being thrown at the girl. This is a kid, for God's sake, and you've got people threatening her safety to such an extent that there has to be a sheriff escorting her to the starting line.
The implication that anyone, anywhere would choose to do this in order to win awards and achieve higher placements is ridiculous. Who willingly signs up for that kind of abuse? They don't, unless it's a core port of who they are, how they define themselves.
(Note that it wasn't too long ago when a majority of people thought that people choose to be gay. And also note, for the most part, it's not the other competitors who are heaping this abuse; it's parents, it's adults who have absolutely nothing to do with it and are not impacted by it at all.)
I do like this part of the article a lot:
"And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's some important nuance. And true. But I agree with the fundamental part of the article: Gallagher's participation, apples to apples, with biological girls is unfair and wrong. I empathize with her situation, but competitive athletes requires lines to be drawn somewhere and this line, to me, seems pretty obvious.
So where do we go from here? The rage and anger and transphobia that so many have make these conversations impossible to have effectively. So many of these conversations, these threads, these comments, there's no empathy or nuance at all, just hatred for a child.
For me, I say just make a third category. And let people be who they want to be.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Without hormone treatments, any record would be that of a mediocre male athlete. It’s not a record that needs to be broken of even acknowledged. It would be faux record and I’ve already discussed it.
A policy that results in "go ahead and ignore the record, because it's 'faux' and the real record is the next time on the list, so shoot for that one because it is the 'real' one," just might be a REALLY, REALLY bad policy.
In other words, my opinion is different than yours.
Schools are bound by ADA and Title IX legislation. This is a no-win situation for ADs and Pincipals. They may 100% agree with you but there is no benefit to risking their careers for the outcome of the girls 200m championship in Oregon.
This is what I’m so confused about on this topic. Go read title XI. It used the verbiage of sex. Not gender.
The idea that the ADA (American with Disabilities Act)requires schools to allow male students who say they are trans to compete in girls' and women's school sports is hogwash.
The ADA requires that schools make reasonable accommodations for students with legitmate, documented disabilities.
Many trans activists and trans lobbying organizations today take umbrage at the idea that people with a trans identity have any kind of disability. They say having a trans or other gender identity inconsistent with one's sex is not a mental health issue in itself, nor the sign of another MH issue.
Some male athletes who've taken so-called "gender affirming hormone treatements" like CeCe Telfer and Lia Thomas have claimed that the meds they take cause them to have de facto physical disabilities at least compared to others of their sex. They and other activists and ideologues want the world to believe that when healthy, fit, strapping males in the prime of their lives decide to take T suppressant drugs and estrogen, it quickly turns them into frail, delicate, dainty flowers so weak they can't even open pickle jars - so there's no way they could possibly compete in the male or open category of sports any more.
But that's malarkey.
Given all that, I don't see how the ADA would apply.
On the other hand, a smaller group of trans activists today claim that the only reason a person would adopt a trans gender identity is due to very distressing inborn mental health condition that interferes with everyday functioning and makes afflicted individuals utterly miserable their whole lives starting from the time they're wee tots learning to unsnap their onesies and forming their earliest memories.
Over the decades, this condition been called different names - "transvestitism," "transsexualism," "gender identity disorder," "born in the wrong body," and since 2013, "gender dysphoria." In the last few years, the term "gender dysphoria" has been falling out of favor and newer terms such as "gender incongruence," "gender variance," "gender diversity" and "gender distress" have been coming into use.
But even if a case could be made that distress over issues having to do with sex/gender does count as a bona fide disability under the ADA, I don't see how allowing males to compete in girls' and women's sports to ameloriate the males' mental health problems - and make them feel better about themselves and more contented with life - could possibly be considered a reasonable accommodation in any fair-minded person's view.
Under the ADA, accommodations made to help some students with disabilites fare better, feel more comfortable and be happier in school aren't reasonable and lawful if they come at the expense of other students.
In this case, the ADA does not permit much less require schools to use the fact that some male students have mental health problems that make them feel sad, left out, lonely and ill at ease amongst members of the own sex as an excuse to take away female students' hard-won rights to equal opportunity, fair play and safety in school sports and education generally.
Doug Binder was at the meet and has written a really good editorial on this at DyeStat -- very measured and sympathetic to the athlete, but firm on the need to prevent this from happening again.
But why did Binder refer to Aayden Gallagher, the boy identifying as a girl, with feminine pronouns? Binder wrote: "And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's a capitulation to false reasoning. Aayden Gallagher is not female, neither on the track nor in other aspects of his life. We aren't helping him by tolerating the charade no matter how deeply internal it might be.
So, basically, you just want to hate on the kid. It wouldn't be enough for them to compete with their biological sex, you have to abuse them along the way, tell them that they're wrong and shameful and that you don't approve, as if anyone gives a sht about your opinion.
I'd also bet that you'd call yourself a small government, don't-tread-on-me type, which would be hilarious if it wasn't so ironically pathetic.
So, I think most people on here know me as someone who is on the left side. When I'm not banned by the Brojos for pointing out how racist and poorly moderated this site is, of course!
Here's the thing: I think this article is pretty spot on. (And I suspect most on the left do too!)
The biggest issue I have -- and I'll stop speaking for everyone on the left at this point -- is the amount of abuse being thrown at the girl. This is a kid, for God's sake, and you've got people threatening her safety to such an extent that there has to be a sheriff escorting her to the starting line.
The implication that anyone, anywhere would choose to do this in order to win awards and achieve higher placements is ridiculous. Who willingly signs up for that kind of abuse? They don't, unless it's a core port of who they are, how they define themselves.
(Note that it wasn't too long ago when a majority of people thought that people choose to be gay. And also note, for the most part, it's not the other competitors who are heaping this abuse; it's parents, it's adults who have absolutely nothing to do with it and are not impacted by it at all.)
I do like this part of the article a lot:
"And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's some important nuance. And true. But I agree with the fundamental part of the article: Gallagher's participation, apples to apples, with biological girls is unfair and wrong. I empathize with her situation, but competitive athletes requires lines to be drawn somewhere and this line, to me, seems pretty obvious.
So where do we go from here? The rage and anger and transphobia that so many have make these conversations impossible to have effectively. So many of these conversations, these threads, these comments, there's no empathy or nuance at all, just hatred for a child.
For me, I say just make a third category. And let people be who they want to be.
The difficult thing is lane limitations in my opinion.
I'd prefer a ban, but if not, in non-lane events like the 2 mile and mile, I'd be fine with allowing them to compete in the girl's division if they'd make it while not being eligible for scoring, while allowing the actual females they'd displace to also compete (so the field may be 13 instead of 12 - something along those lines). But in an 8 lane final that's impossible as someone would be 100% displaced. Maybe allow them to run the equivalent of a time trial before the others go
Yeah, I mean, make them run unattached, run with their biological sex, third category, whatever. I'm actually for that! It's unfair!
The problem I have is that for a very vocal segment of the population, that's not enough. They also have to bully literal children while they're doing it.
Schools are bound by ADA and Title IX legislation. This is a no-win situation for ADs and Pincipals. They may 100% agree with you but there is no benefit to risking their careers for the outcome of the girls 200m championship in Oregon.
This is what I’m so confused about on this topic. Go read title XI. It used the verbiage of sex. Not gender.
This video gives a good summary of where things stand currenty with Title IX in clear language that's easy to understand.
In this week's News Roundup we are joined by Candice Jackson (twitter/x: @CEJacksonLaw), former Acting Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights, and Deputy Gener...
The video also shows that many Ls are not on board with the male-privileging policies being pushed in the name of "trans rights" today - and there's no such thing as a hive-mind "LGBTQ+ community" where the different groups represented by each separate letter are all working together towards the same goals.
This post was edited 12 minutes after it was posted.
So, I think most people on here know me as someone who is on the left side. When I'm not banned by the Brojos for pointing out how racist and poorly moderated this site is, of course!
Here's the thing: I think this article is pretty spot on. (And I suspect most on the left do too!)
The biggest issue I have -- and I'll stop speaking for everyone on the left at this point -- is the amount of abuse being thrown at the girl. This is a kid, for God's sake, and you've got people threatening her safety to such an extent that there has to be a sheriff escorting her to the starting line.
The implication that anyone, anywhere would choose to do this in order to win awards and achieve higher placements is ridiculous. Who willingly signs up for that kind of abuse? They don't, unless it's a core port of who they are, how they define themselves.
(Note that it wasn't too long ago when a majority of people thought that people choose to be gay. And also note, for the most part, it's not the other competitors who are heaping this abuse; it's parents, it's adults who have absolutely nothing to do with it and are not impacted by it at all.)
I do like this part of the article a lot:
"And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's some important nuance. And true. But I agree with the fundamental part of the article: Gallagher's participation, apples to apples, with biological girls is unfair and wrong. I empathize with her situation, but competitive athletes requires lines to be drawn somewhere and this line, to me, seems pretty obvious.
So where do we go from here? The rage and anger and transphobia that so many have make these conversations impossible to have effectively. So many of these conversations, these threads, these comments, there's no empathy or nuance at all, just hatred for a child.
For me, I say just make a third category. And let people be who they want to be.
In other words, what you mean is:
"I support biological males in female sports, even though it's obviously unfair, because I don't want to enforce any policy that might slightly offend someone at the top of the victim hierarchy because I don't want to be a big meanie, so I'll continue to support whatever the progressive far left elite tells me to support."
This post was edited 49 seconds after it was posted.
Yeah, I mean, make them run unattached, run with their biological sex, third category, whatever. I'm actually for that! It's unfair!
The problem I have is that for a very vocal segment of the population, that's not enough. They also have to bully literal children while they're doing it.
A "third category" isn't a serious solution and you know it. I bet you can't even define whom this third category would be for.
If these athletes were forced to compete in a third category, a liberal news article will come out about how trans athletes feel "ostracized" and "othered" competing in a "third category" instead of who they really are and suddenly you will be back to supporting males in the girls category. Face it the progressives tell you exactly what you're allowed to think and you are unwilling to defy them in any way.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
So, I think most people on here know me as someone who is on the left side. When I'm not banned by the Brojos for pointing out how racist and poorly moderated this site is, of course!
Here's the thing: I think this article is pretty spot on. (And I suspect most on the left do too!)
The biggest issue I have -- and I'll stop speaking for everyone on the left at this point -- is the amount of abuse being thrown at the girl. This is a kid, for God's sake, and you've got people threatening her safety to such an extent that there has to be a sheriff escorting her to the starting line.
The implication that anyone, anywhere would choose to do this in order to win awards and achieve higher placements is ridiculous. Who willingly signs up for that kind of abuse? They don't, unless it's a core port of who they are, how they define themselves.
(Note that it wasn't too long ago when a majority of people thought that people choose to be gay. And also note, for the most part, it's not the other competitors who are heaping this abuse; it's parents, it's adults who have absolutely nothing to do with it and are not impacted by it at all.)
I do like this part of the article a lot:
"And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's some important nuance. And true. But I agree with the fundamental part of the article: Gallagher's participation, apples to apples, with biological girls is unfair and wrong. I empathize with her situation, but competitive athletes requires lines to be drawn somewhere and this line, to me, seems pretty obvious.
So where do we go from here? The rage and anger and transphobia that so many have make these conversations impossible to have effectively. So many of these conversations, these threads, these comments, there's no empathy or nuance at all, just hatred for a child.
For me, I say just make a third category. And let people be who they want to be.
The difficult thing is lane limitations in my opinion.
I'd prefer a ban, but if not, in non-lane events like the 2 mile and mile, I'd be fine with allowing them to compete in the girl's division if they'd make it while not being eligible for scoring, while allowing the actual females they'd displace to also compete (so the field may be 13 instead of 12 - something along those lines). But in an 8 lane final that's impossible as someone would be 100% displaced. Maybe allow them to run the equivalent of a time trial before the others go
That’s not what transgender females want to do, and your proposal would require a win in court, by the state, to implement.
But why did Binder refer to Aayden Gallagher, the boy identifying as a girl, with feminine pronouns? Binder wrote: "And yet, Gallagher deserves some credit as a trail-blazing trans athlete. I have no issue with respecting her identity or preferred pronouns. I suspect that she is female in many aspects of life. It took courage and determination to get through the past two days, let alone the past five weeks. She has revealed some admirable qualities."
That's a capitulation to false reasoning. Aayden Gallagher is not female, neither on the track nor in other aspects of his life. We aren't helping him by tolerating the charade no matter how deeply internal it might be.
[1] So, basically, you just want to hate on the kid. It wouldn't be enough for them to compete with their biological sex, you have to abuse them along the way, tell them that they're wrong and shameful and that you don't approve, [2] as if anyone gives a sht about your opinion.
I'd also bet that you'd call yourself a small government, don't-tread-on-me type, which would be hilarious if it wasn't so [3] ironically pathetic.
[1] The alacrity in calling someone a hater these days when he has not expressed it or even bears it is stunning and sad.
[2] Your reply, karen, is self-refuting and [3] ironically pathetic.
First let me say I can't believe Dyestat has gotten to this point. It took a long time but it shows that most people believed it to be unfair all along.
I am a self proclaimed dirty lib (although my hair is its natural color thank you) but I have never felt like it was fair. At all. I'm glad we have come to a place where this has finally broken people who otherwise remained tight lipped on this because I'd like more advocates for fairness in women's sport than freaking libs of tik Tok and that Riley lady.
I think the booing was terrible but what is there to do? This is a state championship race, not some elementary school field day. The people who make the policies at Oregon aren't listening to the majority and kids are suffering. So what else do you do? Silently let the majority of girls suffer and capitulate or loudly stand up.
Make no mistake, the trans girl knows that what she is doing is unfair.
As evidenced by the progression from 27 to 25 to 23, 'she' sandbagged earlier meets.
Time is best in Oregon this year and new Oregon state record correct?
Nah Mia Brahe-Pedersen cooks her by over a second (22.43). But it is first in Oregon this year, if you can count a biological male as first in a women's event
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
clarity
As a Dad of a female HS athlete who has ran track and cross country since middle school and worked day in and day out to be a better runner, I was nearly moved to tears when I witnessed Josie Donelson capture the star 400m title and set the state record yesterday. We knew Josie from our daughters track program and there are thousands of girls across the country chasing dreams of running faster and pushing the limits of what is possible. When another athlete is allowed to take over girls records and potentially win state titles even though they are a biological male is feels unfair to many parents. No system of rules is perfect but OSAA needs to come up with a solution to make track fairer to our girls and fair to athletes who identify as a different gender. The current policy seems to be one-sided.
I believe there are boys and men who by choice or pressure are identifying as girls or women to compete in and win female competitions.
Are they all like that? No.
Are some like that? Yes.
Do female athletic competitions need to be protected? Yes.
Do trans athletes also need an outlet? Yes.
The solution is 3 categories: M, F, Trans. Trans can compete in M or F category, but are only ranked in the Trans category.
I do not understand why this is so difficult to understand.
Alan
I think where you lost most people is saying that trans athlete should be able to compete against women. Whether the ranking points count or not, why would you want to allow them to beat out biological women when you believe they have an unfair advantage? That part does not make sense to me. As for three categories, would you extend this to the Olympics (a third set of competitions crammed into the two weeks for every event)?