Being strong and lifting are good for running, always should be trying to get stronger.
for distance running specifically (and slow distance running example 6:30 pace) heavy squats and deadlifts are probably going to do more harm than good.
Now if you are experienced, have great form, are flexible enough to not hurt your back doing these lifts, that’s awesome! Sounds like you have this box checked, go run more to get faster. That box isn’t checked
You don’t like a 2-6% improvement in running economy is going to change your marathon time? I got to disagree…..
have no clue why you think the % of the marathon being aerobic has anything to do with why someone lifts…
You're making the false assumption that heavy lifting will automatically improve Running Economy.
It can of course, but Running Economy is a double edged sword when it comes to lifting heavy as you can also make your Running Economy worse!
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
The reasons to lift are mainly for 1. Injury prevention (especially if you have had some sort of imbalance or over-use injury caused by specific weakness that needs to be addressed) and/or 2. To boost natural testosterone levels/metabolism. 3. to stimulate fast twitch muscle fibers.
Yes, you can improve stride/power with certain specific lifts (which can improve Running Economy).....but remember you can also hurt your Running Economy by bulking up in the wrong areas! This isn't a simple: "to lift or not to lift"
Sure but that is like saying aerobic running can hurt your aerobic capacity. After all if you run and get a stress fracture, that lack of running for a couple months is going to make you slower. There is a basic assumption that you train properly…
I'm sure weight training helps... but I hear so many stories about weight training causing its own injuries that I think it's net-net a coin toss.
WRONG
Seriously. Go read about injury in strength sports vs running. Endurance sports with impact, e.g. running, have some of the highest injury rates among all physical activities. Yes, you can hurt yourself lifting. But if you check your ego at the door and keep is simple, you'll be more than fine.
Imagine someone's mostly into strength training but they want to start running a bit. Someone like you would hopefully warn them that it's one of the most injury-inducing sports there is, right? Probably wrong. You would tell them to start easy, don't go too crazy, slowly increase mileage, etc. All of this goes for lifting too. Learn the movements and progressively overload. You wouldn't have a new runner do 5x1000m on their first day of training, would you? That's how you get injured. Now don't do the same in the weightroom and squat 5x5 heavy on day 1 and it's all good.
How you incorporate lifting into your routine is up to you, and it's impact at longer distance running is certainly debatable. But it's clear that plenty of people use it to their advantage.
Being strong and lifting are good for running, always should be trying to get stronger.
for distance running specifically (and slow distance running example 6:30 pace) heavy squats and deadlifts are probably going to do more harm than good.
Now if you are experienced, have great form, are flexible enough to not hurt your back doing these lifts, that’s awesome! Sounds like you have this box checked, go run more to get faster. That box isn’t checked
I'm sure weight training helps... but I hear so many stories about weight training causing its own injuries that I think it's net-net a coin toss.
WRONG
Seriously. Go read about injury in strength sports vs running. Endurance sports with impact, e.g. running, have some of the highest injury rates among all physical activities. Yes, you can hurt yourself lifting. But if you check your ego at the door and keep is simple, you'll be more than fine.
Imagine someone's mostly into strength training but they want to start running a bit. Someone like you would hopefully warn them that it's one of the most injury-inducing sports there is, right? Probably wrong. You would tell them to start easy, don't go too crazy, slowly increase mileage, etc. All of this goes for lifting too. Learn the movements and progressively overload. You wouldn't have a new runner do 5x1000m on their first day of training, would you? That's how you get injured. Now don't do the same in the weightroom and squat 5x5 heavy on day 1 and it's all good.
How you incorporate lifting into your routine is up to you, and it's impact at longer distance running is certainly debatable. But it's clear that plenty of people use it to their advantage.
Also, since personal anecdotes are allowed as evidence here. I sometimes follow Olympic lifting, I keep up with it a bit and am somewhat familiar with training for that sport.
I can't think of many times when some world-class Olympic lifter was out for injury. Yet in running, it's nonstop. "Oh so and so might miss this season, the ol' achilles got them!" Isn't that Jakob right now?
Yeah those BYU athletes are running 90 seconds fast per mile than the OP on their tempos, and race pace is 2+ mins faster per mile.
My argument was at 6:20-6:30 pace for a marathon, squats are going to do anything other than risk a lifting injury.
And before anyone chimes in that squats and dead lifts reduce injuries, go talk to a PT and see how many people injure themselves in the weight room. There are other ways to get strong.
I agree in some ways, disagree with others. If we have unlimited time, I'd add in lifting. If time is a limiting factor, probably run more.
Sure, there are other ways to get strong, but lifting is the most efficient path and there's a reason essentially every pro includes it in their regime. High weight/low rep, especially when paired with some sprinting, is a great way to recruit additional muscle fibers especially for a marathoner who rarely touches on this system.
Ill I’m saying is there dude is running 6:20- 6:30 pace for a marathon. More running is probably going to be more beneficial than adding more heavy lifts.
I think every high level coach would agree with that statement. But maybe I’m an idiot, power up those legs and explode through that marathon!!!
Ill I’m saying is there dude is running 6:20- 6:30 pace for a marathon. More running is probably going to be more beneficial than adding more heavy lifts.
I think every high level coach would agree with that statement. But maybe I’m an idiot, power up those legs and explode through that marathon!!!
Run through the ground!
I think it just depends on what is limiting this athlete. I'd need to know more about mileage, workouts, shorter PR's, etc.
My answer, if being binary, is that lifting is good.
The more nuanced answer is that it has to fit into a bigger picture and meet the athlete's needs.
Do you really think women want SKINNY/SCRAWNY men? Think again.
The times have changed. Tick-Tock, Insta-gram, REDDIT. Everywhere HUGE/JACKED/RIPPED guys get adored.
How do you get there? Heres' how:
1. Lift heavy weights for high reps (think CrossFit style) 2. Eat a PALEO diet (this is important) with plenty of protein/fats 3. No SLOGGING (= slow jogging). Good cardio would be CrossFit style sprint repeats. Research the boards, I posted plenty about it.
I'm sure weight training helps... but I hear so many stories about weight training causing its own injuries that I think it's net-net a coin toss.
WRONG
Seriously. Go read about injury in strength sports vs running. Endurance sports with impact, e.g. running, have some of the highest injury rates among all physical activities. Yes, you can hurt yourself lifting. But if you check your ego at the door and keep is simple, you'll be more than fine.
Imagine someone's mostly into strength training but they want to start running a bit. Someone like you would hopefully warn them that it's one of the most injury-inducing sports there is, right? Probably wrong. You would tell them to start easy, don't go too crazy, slowly increase mileage, etc. All of this goes for lifting too. Learn the movements and progressively overload. You wouldn't have a new runner do 5x1000m on their first day of training, would you? That's how you get injured. Now don't do the same in the weightroom and squat 5x5 heavy on day 1 and it's all good.
How you incorporate lifting into your routine is up to you, and it's impact at longer distance running is certainly debatable. But it's clear that plenty of people use it to their advantage.
This ^
Lifting injuries are rarer than you think, and they mostly occur because people are doing them WRONG with improper technique. Overuse injuries do occur, but nowhere near as ubiquitous as they are in running.
Seriously. Go read about injury in strength sports vs running. Endurance sports with impact, e.g. running, have some of the highest injury rates among all physical activities. Yes, you can hurt yourself lifting. But if you check your ego at the door and keep is simple, you'll be more than fine.
Imagine someone's mostly into strength training but they want to start running a bit. Someone like you would hopefully warn them that it's one of the most injury-inducing sports there is, right? Probably wrong. You would tell them to start easy, don't go too crazy, slowly increase mileage, etc. All of this goes for lifting too. Learn the movements and progressively overload. You wouldn't have a new runner do 5x1000m on their first day of training, would you? That's how you get injured. Now don't do the same in the weightroom and squat 5x5 heavy on day 1 and it's all good.
How you incorporate lifting into your routine is up to you, and it's impact at longer distance running is certainly debatable. But it's clear that plenty of people use it to their advantage.
This ^
Lifting injuries are rarer than you think, and they mostly occur because people are doing them WRONG with improper technique. Overuse injuries do occur, but nowhere near as ubiquitous as they are in running.
Are weight training injuries limited due to Nandrolone in your opinion?
Comparing running injuries to weight training injuries is not an answer to Agip's concern.
Agip is concerned that weight training introduces an entirely different possibilities of injuries plus running injuries. That is true.
Proper form? What a joke. That is like posters on here saying running injuries are due to running with improper form. Form is a part of the equation but proper form does not eliminate injuries.
I believe in weight training for cross training, just be honest.
This is a pretty convincing 40 week study - using 20 competitive distance runners - demonstrating the beneficial effect of strength training on performance indicators in distance runners, those being running economy (RE) and vVo2max (velocity at VO2max), due to the increase in maximal, explosive, and reactive strength.
There was an initial phase, building maximal strength, then a secondary phase adding plyometrics etc. to increase reactive strength/explosive strength while also maintaining maximal strength gains.
I've always been a believer in using plyometrics as an adjunct to both my and my athletes' strength training programs and have seen the results. The evidence is both empirically and objectively convincing. Serious caveat: Build a strong foundation so your tendons and joints can withstand the force of landings. Strength first, then power.
The intervention group showed significant improvements in maximal and reactive strength qualities, RE, and VV̇o2max, at weeks 20 (p ≤ 0.05) and 40 (p ≤ 0.05).
This study demonstrates that 40 weeks of strength training can significantly improve maximal and reactive strength qualities, RE, and VV̇o2max, without concomitant hypertrophy, in competitive distance runners.
You're making the false assumption that heavy lifting will automatically improve Running Economy.
It can of course, but Running Economy is a double edged sword when it comes to lifting heavy as you can also make your Running Economy worse!
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
The reasons to lift are mainly for 1. Injury prevention (especially if you have had some sort of imbalance or over-use injury caused by specific weakness that needs to be addressed) and/or 2. To boost natural testosterone levels/metabolism. 3. to stimulate fast twitch muscle fibers.
Yes, you can improve stride/power with certain specific lifts (which can improve Running Economy).....but remember you can also hurt your Running Economy by bulking up in the wrong areas! This isn't a simple: "to lift or not to lift"
Sure but that is like saying aerobic running can hurt your aerobic capacity. After all if you run and get a stress fracture, that lack of running for a couple months is going to make you slower. There is a basic assumption that you train properly…
That's actually not a valid comparison to what I wrote at all! Check your "logic".
I never said lifting can't be a part of a beneficial training program (and can help distance runners!). I will squat and deadlift myself!
I think in general (esp between the CrossFit crowd, hobby joggers and "hybrid athletes") lifting in terms of improving marathon performance is vastly overrated.
Most people are better served (injuries aside) from running higher mileage and developing a bigger consistent aerobic base with a mix of lactate threshold and vo2max-like workouts.
It's not like this "black and white thing" (to lift or not)...but rather many shades of grey.
Sure but that is like saying aerobic running can hurt your aerobic capacity. After all if you run and get a stress fracture, that lack of running for a couple months is going to make you slower. There is a basic assumption that you train properly…
That's actually not a valid comparison to what I wrote at all! Check your "logic".
I never said lifting can't be a part of a beneficial training program (and can help distance runners!). I will squat and deadlift myself!
I think in general (esp between the CrossFit crowd, hobby joggers and "hybrid athletes") lifting in terms of improving marathon performance is vastly overrated.
Most people are better served (injuries aside) from running higher mileage and developing a bigger consistent aerobic base with a mix of lactate threshold and vo2max-like workouts.
It's not like this "black and white thing" (to lift or not)...but rather many shades of grey.
No it is exactly the same. In both cases the training made them slower. Nobody is talking about lifting to gain muscle mass when talking distance runners.
Injuries aside are the whole reason you don’t do more running. After you put in your 120mpw, you aren’t going to squeeze in another vo2max session without breaking down. You can lift. And nobody is talking about crossfitters and their ideas of what endurance is.
That being said, I am not sold on lifting gains compounding for long. It is one thing to get a basic strength level of say 1.5x-2x in a deadlift. The benefits of going to say 3x seem questionable. You rapidly hit a point where lifting to maintain is the goal.
And somebody talked about meb dropping the weight being stupid. There is a lot of evidence point to avoiding doing eccentric motions depending on what you are looking to do.
Seriously. Go read about injury in strength sports vs running. Endurance sports with impact, e.g. running, have some of the highest injury rates among all physical activities. Yes, you can hurt yourself lifting. But if you check your ego at the door and keep is simple, you'll be more than fine.
Imagine someone's mostly into strength training but they want to start running a bit. Someone like you would hopefully warn them that it's one of the most injury-inducing sports there is, right? Probably wrong. You would tell them to start easy, don't go too crazy, slowly increase mileage, etc. All of this goes for lifting too. Learn the movements and progressively overload. You wouldn't have a new runner do 5x1000m on their first day of training, would you? That's how you get injured. Now don't do the same in the weightroom and squat 5x5 heavy on day 1 and it's all good.
How you incorporate lifting into your routine is up to you, and it's impact at longer distance running is certainly debatable. But it's clear that plenty of people use it to their advantage.
This ^
Lifting injuries are rarer than you think, and they mostly occur because people are doing them WRONG with improper technique. Overuse injuries do occur, but nowhere near as ubiquitous as they are in running.
I don't doubt that weight training done well is relatively safe.
The problem is that non-pro runners don't have strength coaches to teach them how to do weights correctly. Instead, they'll just watch some you tubes, go to the gym, and try their best.
The result is often an injury. Agreed it's from doing weights wrong but that's the world almost all post-collegiate runners live in.
I remember hearing in an interview somewhere that Meb Keflezighi would do HEAVY deadlifts, but drop the weight at the top instead of lowering it back to the ground. Took this approach to build the strength and reap the efficiency gains without putting on muscle. As on the way down, you're tearing the muscle fibers which is the stimulus for hypertrophy whereas on the way up you get the strength stimulus without the hypertrophy stimulus.
This is 100% correct. His focus was force application. He worked his way up to 3x body weight for the concentric hex bar deadlift. Dropping the bar to avoid the eccentric was to reduce injury risk. I believe he was working with the same strength guy as Lindsay Vonn. Context is everything- OP is a 2:45 guy who can squat 205 for 5x5. I’d argue he’s already squeezing as much water from the strength stone as is likely necessary for the marathon. I’d suggest the opposite if he was running 2:45 without weight training.
Lifting injuries are rarer than you think, and they mostly occur because people are doing them WRONG with improper technique. Overuse injuries do occur, but nowhere near as ubiquitous as they are in running.
Are weight training injuries limited due to Nandrolone in your opinion?
Comparing running injuries to weight training injuries is not an answer to Agip's concern.
Agip is concerned that weight training introduces an entirely different possibilities of injuries plus running injuries. That is true.
Proper form? What a joke. That is like posters on here saying running injuries are due to running with improper form. Form is a part of the equation but proper form does not eliminate injuries.
I believe in weight training for cross training, just be honest.
My goodness, I'm not sure I've seen a post to this extent where the poster has no idea what they're talking about.
Many running injuries ARE due to "improper" form. What you do you "improper biomechanics" means why coaches and athletes work on form and stride? From Daniel's Running Formula, Third edition, page 49 -
"The important thing, especially going extra slow on an E run, is to make every effort to maintain good running mechanics, because losing desirable mechanics may lead to injury. Remember this when you are feeling particularly tired or not quite ride with your stride - this maybe be one of those days when not running will do you more good than forcings yourself to struggle through a run and end up with a minor injury."
In terms of "being honest" - perhaps you should take a look in the mirror and reflect on disingenuous.
Hobbyjogger reads the training of the elites.. Hmmmm so Rupp and Farah were doing tempo runs, they doubled every day, they did form work, lots of miles at goal race pace, they logged over 100 mpw.. and they did some heavy squats a few times."