World championship 1500 golds: Scotsman - 2; Jakob - 0.
I also said Snell would outkick Jakob every time. I didn't say that the Scots athletes would but they have - twice - when it counted most - a championship final. You are too thick to see the distinction.
No, Dumbstrong, you have said Snell would outkick Ingebrigsten every time over 1500m/mile, like the two Scots.
The two Scots have regularly lost to Ingebrigtsen. And for sure so would have the Snell of 1960 - 1964. The Snell of those days today probably would be something like 1:42.8/3:32. Most likely he would not run the 1500m at all today.
I also said Snell would outkick Jakob every time. I didn't say that the Scots athletes would but they have - twice - when it counted most - a championship final. You are too thick to see the distinction.
No, Dumbstrong, you have said Snell would outkick Ingebrigsten every time over 1500m/mile, like the two Scots.
The two Scots have regularly lost to Ingebrigtsen. And for sure so would have the Snell of 1960 - 1964. The Snell of those days today probably would be something like 1:42.8/3:32. Most likely he would not run the 1500m at all today.
No, Dumbstrong, you have said Snell would outkick Ingebrigsten every time over 1500m/mile, like the two Scots.
The two Scots have regularly lost to Ingebrigtsen. And for sure so would have the Snell of 1960 - 1964. The Snell of those days today probably would be something like 1:42.8/3:32. Most likely he would not run the 1500m at all today.
Snell had the Mile WR.
... which was bettered by Ryun within a few years by 3 seconds...
Lydiard is like Bach. The guy discovered all the key elements of the field and articulated them for everyone else to follow. People change the drapes, or paint, but Lydiard built the house.
This. The fundamental principle of all modern training is volume = aerobic fitness.
Lydiard is like Bach. The guy discovered all the key elements of the field and articulated them for everyone else to follow. People change the drapes, or paint, but Lydiard built the house.
This. The fundamental principle of all modern training is volume = aerobic fitness.
That means "modern training" is 70+ years old. There is nothing new!
When Arthur was asked which phase was most important, he said, "all of them are important." But the aerobic phase is the foundation to which all else is built on.
And periodization is something he developed. The phase in periodization was the aerobic phase.
With the advent of doping and very savvy dopers as well as super shoes, faster rubber tracks, I bet you could compare Snell and John Walker to anyone today.
Snell became quite the physiologist after his competitive career. When asked what he would change about Lydiard's training now that he is an exercise physiologist, he said, "very little."
Arthur said the early rubber track were worth one second per lap. Now more. Snell's 1:44.1 on grass is 1:42.1 then. Still world-class. Now, how about the fastest possible tracks of today? A little faster? HOw about super spikes? 1:40.00? Dare I say?
If you look at the training the top athletes do, they are all very similar....the same physiological principles apply to humans today as 70 years ago. We haven't evolved from them (probably socially devolved), but physiologically....same rules apply. Keep in mind, training principles today are based on Arthur Lydiard training principles.
Wetcoast wrote in this thread, in part, "If you look at the training the top athletes do, they are all very similar...."
In another reply in this thread Wetcoast wrote, in part,
"I was at a coaching conference several years ago. James Li from Arizona (Lawli Lalang and a few other athletes of note) got up and said, "I coach the Arthur Lydiard way." He wasn't prompted, he just said it. Then Alberto Salazar gets up after him and says, "I too coach the Arthur Lydiard way." The two presentations were opposite in nature. And what I do know about them, use completely different approaches. Neither in my mind coach the Arthur Lydiard Way, Salazar has a focus on too much fine quality and Li seemed rather apathetic about what Lalang was up to half the time. Had him run 60 miles per week, didn't know if he went off with some friends for a run half the time."
These two statements seem at odds with one another.
So you think Snell with now a days shoes would run more than 10 seconds faster in the 1500m and the mile? And it could very well be more than 12 seconds if Jakob continues improving the coming years (as I believe he will - barring illness and injury).
Snell was my first running hero and I have nothing bad to say about him or his career BUT.......
He was an amateur (as everyone else at the time) and even in his rather short career (from 1958 to 1965: age 19 to 26) he had periods where he didn´t train with continuity due to fatique and lack of motivation. He also experienced overload injuries.
Whereas Jakob has been training efficiently and seriously from the age of 8 with very few interruptions and has been able to concentrate fully on running from he finished high school in 2019 at the age of 18. He already signed a 6 years contract with Nike in early 2018 when still only 17.
Snell on the other hand needed to have a full time work to support a living and possibly suffered finacially when he traveled to other parts of the world to compete in championships or in other competitions arranged in Europe or in the US.
So no shame for Snell to not have the level of Jakob or of other current top runners (for example Nuguse and potentially Reynold, Laros and Myer).
Modern shoes to race and train in, make Snell a pro and put him on modern tracks to race and train on and we really can't figure out how much faster he's be.
I always wonder, even about myself- I started running at 12 in 1971- there was absolutely no technology for tracks, shoes, even clothing. No one truly understood what a good diet for a runner should look like- it was calories in that's about it.
What does a "good diet" for a runner look like? Forget about the calories? (How about the best peds out there?)
As for not thinking there was any technology for tracks in that era - what do you think they were racing on at Mexico in '68 and Munich '72? Sand? Shoes were little different from today - light, minimalist with spikes. And clothing - how were super-light shorts and vests, which runners still use today, slowing them down? I think you're reflecting on the 19th century, not the late 20th.
I also said Snell would outkick Jakob every time. I didn't say that the Scots athletes would but they have - twice - when it counted most - a championship final. You are too thick to see the distinction.
No, Dumbstrong, you have said Snell would outkick Ingebrigsten every time over 1500m/mile, like the two Scots.
The two Scots have regularly lost to Ingebrigtsen. And for sure so would have the Snell of 1960 - 1964. The Snell of those days today probably would be something like 1:42.8/3:32. Most likely he would not run the 1500m at all today.
I did say Snell would do that - I am not saying he wouldn't - but I simply added, like the way Ingebrigtsen has been outkicked by two Scotsmen - which isn't the same point. But you are too staggeringly thick to follow that. I can't really be bothered trying to discuss these things with a moron who can't read a sentence and understand it.
This post was edited 53 seconds after it was posted.
No, Dumbstrong, you have said Snell would outkick Ingebrigsten every time over 1500m/mile, like the two Scots.
The two Scots have regularly lost to Ingebrigtsen. And for sure so would have the Snell of 1960 - 1964. The Snell of those days today probably would be something like 1:42.8/3:32. Most likely he would not run the 1500m at all today.
World championship 1500 golds: Scotsman - 2; Jakob - 0.
Ingebrigtsen / Wightman / Kerr
2018 EC
1 (age 17) / 3 / -
2019 WC
4 (age 18) / 5 / 6
2021 OG
1 / 10 / 3
2022 WC
2 / 5 / 1
2023 WC
2 / - / 1
What's your point Dumbstrong?
It isn't about h2h, moron, but that in two global championship finals Ingebrigtsen has been successively outkicked by two Scotsmen. That is the point. It needs no further explanation to anyone with an iota of intelligence.
Fact, Peter Snell in super shoes would mop the floor with Jokob.
Lydiard training hasn’t been improved upon.
This turns out to be one of those pointless GOAT arguments.
I do believe that a lot of 800 meter training underestimates the benefit of more training. Peter Snell had a great kick because he still had something left in the tank because of the Lydiard's distance base he had underneath him.
I don't think a lot of progress has been made in men's distance running since Lydiard and definitely some of the increase especially in the marathon can be attributed to the shoes.
I also think a lot of it must have been Lydiard being a great motivator and not just because of his training. When you look at the competitiveness of distance runners that came out of New Zealand a small country on the bottom of the world with less than 3 million people it was truly amazing how many medals they took home.
Maybe its the way you write or word choices. For example, bounding is not a phase. Bounding is part of the hill phase. This is where you confused me. And just the way you mentioned from Aeorbic to bounding to anaerobic....or however you actually wrote it, it reads as if singular aspects are developed only and nothing else.
And what is published in schedules (not that you are necessarily indicating this) was only published because it helped book sales. He didn't want to put the schedules out for obvious reasons.
The art of coaching — missing from most dialogue when people discuss Lydiard — is nuanced and may appear at times to contradict what he had written down.
For example, I had two masters run a half marathon last weekend. I stick very close to Lydiard (I mean have I coached 17 Olympic gold medals? Nope). I gave them two very different sets of instructions for the day before. Same tactics instructions for the course and conditions and emphasized the killer instinct with one over the other. They both ran a couple minutes faster than they anticipated.
So, it could appear that I contradict Lydiard, but I do not. He was the master at crafting the right intructions. And he knew when to sit someone down while making another do something anaerobic in training and he also knew when to just watch and let the athlete handle the effort and the volume (famoud Dick Tayler story).
The phases, in order are important, but like his 100 mile weeks or 22-mile Waiatarua runs, there was much more to his coaching than those most popular things.
It reminds of Gladwell's book Outliers. Everyone quotes "10,000 hours of practice." No one seems to remember opportunity, timing, the right practice and being born at the right time. There's more to the story.
Let's look at the data from a larger pool, than just a handful that Li had and whatever it was Salazar was doing with his athletes.....the stories....not going there.
Just take the training program of the top-whatever 100 or 200 or 500 marathon runners all time and if you can see their training schedules you will see that they start to look very, very similar after awhile.
I asked Ryan Hall to discuss his training and he said, "why, they all looked pretty much the same."
He wasn't dismissing me either. We carried on interviewing after that.
Frank Shorter said something to the effect, "I would write a book about training but I wouldn't know what to put in after page 2."
I have Stefano Baldini's training leading up to his Athens gold medal marathon win. Looks like Lydiard told his coach what to do and they modernized with heart rates and nice graphs.
I could go on. Perhaps Rupp would have run 2:04 if he was coached by someone like Sang, I dunno. Lost opportunity there. Maybe Lalang would have done something more coached by someone who was more focussed and concern with what his athletes were doing....
The key here is taking the five Lydiard principles and having some saving, skill and creativity to work the nuances with the athlete. No one deserves the cookie cutter schedule. Gross.
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